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so i was perusing through the online guide and some of the comments are hilarious, others give too much beta, and others still are cries of fluffing and sandbagging. one thing that stands out though is how some routes get labeled choss or called "dirty" by one (or a bunch of) person(s) and others say, "no, this route is not dirty, i will love it and spread the word."

my question is what do you define as "choos" or "dirty" we are outside so dirt should be expected and it is sandstone so the choss comments need to stop. but really, whats your criteria?

things clean up, usually when I counter someones choss comment, the previous comment is several yaers old. Personally, if every hold either hurts or crumbles a bit, then its choss. If I feel like the key clipping holds are breaking while I make the clip, its choss. For instance, the 4 star 12 at vol wall....absolute choss.

a lot of the stuff that people call choss is just new climbs that need some traffic. when drive-by crag was new it was a scary place. big chunks would break off on early ascents. now stuff hardly ever breaks there.

i think a lot of the comments about "choss" you see are from people climbing new routes who haven't figured out it's a natural process. it takes a couple years sometimes for routes to clean up. of course it helps if the fa spends a little time cleaning first.

my criteria:
1. if i don't send then it must be a choss pile
2. if pigsteak bolted it... probably a choss pile
the end

actually i haven't encountered anything yet that i would truly consider to be a choss pile which to me wouldn't be worth the time and effort of having climbed if you had known in advance. i still need to check out listerine girl though and see what that's all about.

Brentucky wrote:i still need to check out listerine girl though and see what that's all about.

http://www.redriverclimbing.com/RRCGuid ... 4092338673

Go climb Should've Known Better at Solar Collector/Gold Coast and you will understand choss. On the other hand, most of the 0 star routes I have climbed, while I wouldn't go out of my way, if I was already at the cliff with some free time I would climb them again. Some people complain too much...at least you are out climbing.

Listerine girl is only choss if you're off route. If you grab something and it breaks, off route... if you grab something and it crumbles a little, off route... if you are fat and tend to break holds, off route... if you stand on the tongue and it breaks, off route.

tread lightly... pull lightly... lose a little weight... 5 stars!!!!

It's too bad the Oil Crack is closed, Hooky Pals... now there's some real choss.

On the FA, Johnny pulled off 3 tons of loose rock... then when it was time for Rhino or I to lead it next, Johnny looked at me and said "JB, you've been climbing here long enough to know what not to pull on, so you should go next". Now that is some classic choss right there! Btw... i pulled off 2 more tons of looseness.

A route is what it is. Sometimes the rock sucks more than you think, sometimes it's almost solid.

btw... though my name is associated with both Hooky Pals and Listerine Girl, I bolted neither...

plausible deniability at its best!

I though anything slab was choss.

If a route will "evolve" into a nice route with time then it's not choss, just has had no traffic. If no amount of traffic will increase the value/quality then the route is choss.

If sand pours out of a handjam (ie Calypso II) then it is choss.

There are routes when I started climbing that I considered loose and/or friable/chossy that have changed dramatically since then and have nice rounded holds and gym-like textures after all those grubby little hands have caressed them.

Nothing like a rounded blackened rubber-coated dime edge to get the blood pumping!

Now, what is truly a CLASSIC route is one that has no trail to the base, no chalk anywhere and you can walk up to it and get that "Used-route feel" right out of the box. No dirt, no breaking holds, no "choss". Ultra-classic if there is a nice tree to rappel from. Of course you'd have to take your own webbing cause there'd be none. An old fire road to the general vicinity adds stars.