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“I think that the surge has succeeded in ways that nobody anticipated,â€

And tomdarch. I'm not suggesting that Barack was wrong to have been against the war before it started. That was a principled position. In fact I'm not at all certain that the invasion of Iraq was the best way to pursue the war against Islamic extremism. But, the dems voted with the republicans for this war. Then when the war proved more difficult than anticipated, they decided that the politically expediant course would be to pursue defeat, knowing that defeat would be pinned on Bush and the Republican party, thus insuring Democratic victory in November.

That's right, the bastards thought that throwing U.S. soldiers, and their own country, under the bus would further their political ambitions. They thought that the "Bush lied" meme would provide all the cover necessary for their naked act of treason in pursuit of political power. I sure hope the voters prove them wrong in November.

Tomdarch - before you write a nice retort consider just playing L K Day's game and just call him an idiot and be done with it.

I'm trying to figure out what world you live in Larry. You must see my Mom there a lot, it's a sheltered little world with white walls filled with 98% white people over 40 and there's a Fox News and Weekly Standard soundtrack playing in the background.

As far as the surge goes...... You don't think it had anything to do with the fact that Sadr ordered a ceasefire shortly before it happened? Has nothing to do with the fact that the Sadr army decided their efforts would be more effective in infrastructure efforts and thus would allow for political appointments?

Mark my words, he says fight tomorrow and the tenuous "success" you people base on the surge will evaporate.

Jesus I wonder how people can talk when they do so little investigative research.

Are you suggesting that Obama now lives in this world as well? For the last few months he's been making statements that incrementally approached his current position, that the surge has worked "beyond our wildest dreams".

You credit the success of the surge to Sadr's cease fire, something he does everytime his "army" starts getting the shit shot out of it. Don't forget that the success of the surge started with the Sunnis in Anbar. Sadr didn't have anything to do with that.

You say the success of the surge will evaporate. I say there's no way that those who advocate retreat, defeat and surrender will ever succeed.

First off, I'm a bit skeptical in saying the recent successes are permanent. That could change with one order from Sadr, and that is my point. Yes, there are fewer causalities this month, yes it is a huge success to be able to hand over the Anbar province to Iraqi forces. I'm not saying there haven't been improvements, but there are many factors to consider other than the increase in US troops.

The maturation of the Iraqi government (and the Shia's realization they should be a part of it) and issues Iraqi people have with foreign insurgents in their country coming to a head are just two considerations I'd hesitate to think were any less important that an increase in troops. Credit goes to Petraeus for realizing foot soldiers will help gain trust more than convoys in poorly armored vehicles. A shift in management and philosophy was critical, as was the timing but this complex situation is anything but secure.

That said, I love how the retreat/defeat/surrender characterization is so epidemic in that thinking. How would you characterize what's been done in Afghanistan? That feel like retreat/defeat/surrender to you?

Over all, my point is there is a lot going on here and when you oversimplify it and use pedestrian terms you're not giving yourself or anyone else in the conversation enough credit. That includes our bred for soundbyte politicians. It's characteristic of the subjective media and one of the main reasons our country on the whole is a hell of a lot stupider now.

That's reasonable.

Of course it wasn't the increase in troop levels that lead to the success of the surge. But the increase in troop levels gave Petraeus the manpower necessary for the full implementation of his counter insurgency strategy. Of course Petraeus had already demonstrated the effectiveness of said strategy before the surge started.

Harry Reid pronounced the surge a failure before it even began. Obama said the surge would increase the level of violence in Iraq, then denied it's success even after it was apparent to everybody that it was working. Now, baby step by baby step, he has finally come around to recognizing success. Why were the dems so heavily invested in defeat? Politics, that's why.

Afghanistan? I hope it finally gets the attention it deserves, and I think it will. Things are about to get very hot for the Taliban. Again, without defending the decision to go into Iraq in the first place, I think it's appalling that we haven't been able to sustain maximum effort in Iraq and Afghanistan at the same time. Now that should be a scandal.

and why didn't Patraeus have the troop levels he needed. because bush and his good ol' buddies are as stupid as everyone but LKDAY think they are. just think the GOP could have taken credit for fighting the war the right way and not just fucking it up real bad and then having some success in fixing it. then there would have only been the slightly sticky point that the reasons given to the American public were undeniably false. Justifying war with Iraq with lies that is truly a "naked act of treason."

mcrib wrote:and why didn't Patraeus have the troop levels he needed. because bush and his good ol' buddies are as stupid as everyone but LKDAY think they are. just think the GOP could have taken credit for fighting the war the right way and not just fucking it up real bad and then having some success in fixing it. then there would have only been the slightly sticky point that the reasons given to the American public were undeniably false. Justifying war with Iraq with lies that is truly a "naked act of treason."

and we agree mcrib..that is why the whiney spinless democrats who were elected just two years ago should be thrown out. they don't have the balls to impeach Bush. They are just as bad as his initial acts bacause they are excusing it.

and I agree. The dominant political climate... cover your own ass and make as much money as possible