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smurf chuck

thats better

The quote from Royal Robbins was about jams, not about climbing in general. Jams are something that need to be learned and fostered. Pulling on pockets is a natural action that comes easily to most. Hence the ability of any gumby to climb just about anything at bruisbrothers wall and the difficulty faced by almost everyone their first time on roadside attraction. I still say if it's harder to learn how to do something, then the activity is harder by definition, despite how it may feel once you have learned the technique. My comments about calculus were meant to echo the same sentiment. Funny how my comments support my argument in my mind, but support JR's in his. Apparently I need to work on my analogies.

As for the comment about Royal only climbing 5.9 slabs. So am I (only climbing 5.9), which is proabably why I agree with him. I can't comment on the upper grades. I've only ever sent 11d sport, which isn't really hard, and 10a trad, which apparently everyone but myself agrees is super easy.

As for whining about the points system being lame: this is an online forum, what did you expect?

I thought I'd try to wrap it up by citing a definative source clearly illustrating why I am right, and why JR and 512OW are wrong, courtesy of Tommy Caldwell and La Sportiva http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU

noobs pull a few 5.10 sport climbs with their shiny draws, and then when they find out that it will actually take some physical exertion, committment to train,and athletic abilities to move further up the climbing food chain, they decide to take up trad climbing.

there, they can place gear with no hands rests every two feet, actually never get pumped, and spray around the fire about some "run out 5.6 they sent."

it really does come down to how hard someone wants to train, for either discipline. I say the trad crowd is filled with noobs, chicks, and washed out old men because they don't want to admit they'll never climb 5.12. not because they can't, but because they are lazy in their committment.

how many friends have told me they are going to Seneca when they are out of shape, just so they can climb without embarassing themselves.....

Dang, the Rick Roll!

If you can consistenly climb 5.11d sport but only climb 5.9 trad the problem with progressing in trad is certainly not the difficulty of the climbing. The simple fact that pulling is intuitive wouldn't let you climb nearly three number grades harder. Maybe you spent more time practicing sport moves?

pigsteak wrote:

I say the trad crowd is filled with noobs, chicks, and washed out old men because they don't want to admit they'll never climb 5.12. not because they can't, but because they are lazy in their committment.

Damn piggie, that's pretty harsh. Some traddie wrong you in a past life or what? I don't have a problem admitting I'll never climb 5.12, I'm pretty sure I never will, also won't lose any sleep over the fact. I did'nt start climbing 'till I was in my 40's (I turn 50 today 8) )so I don't think I'm washed up yet, I'm just old and fat, though I prolly qualify as a noob. Most of the other trad climbers I know aren't lazy, they just like gear routes. Me, I avoid crimpy routes like a plauge, my old finger joints just won't let me do it. I agree that commitment is the key to advancing in any pursuit. But it takes more commitment to carry a full trad rack out to Dip wall than it does to carry a dozen draws to the Great Wall at Muir.

In most cases, I agree with Piggie on this.

True, like Winterstorm, some people just like to place gear. I do, however, know that somehow, in trad, 5.10 is still a "magic" number for most. I've very rarely had to wait for a 5.11 crack at ANY area... JTree, Yosemite, TWall, wherever....

Why?

Because most traddies are pussies.

It takes way more commitment to be "good" at sport climbing (5.12c-13a) than it does to be "good" at trad climbing (5.10-11).

Traddies need to catch the fuck up. Face it, a 5.8 crack is NOT equivalent to 5.10 sport. 5.11 cracks are NOT any harder than 5.11 sport. King Me IS harder than the Inhibitor.

Unless you're Winterstorm or Charlie, and really just enjoy it for the process, then man up. Stop bein a bitch and admit your shortcomings.

absolutsugarsmurf wrote: Jams are something that need to be learned and fostered. Pulling on pockets is a natural action that comes easily to most. Hence the ability of any gumby to climb just about anything at bruisbrothers wall and the difficulty faced by almost everyone their first time on roadside attraction.

People have trouble on Roadside Attraction?? I've taken dozens of beginners up it... with no trouble. A 30 second tutorial on jamming, and its easy. The 5.7 part is laybacking, which is intuitive. The jams on Roadside are maybe 5.5.

True, jams need to be learned. The jams that are required to climb up to 5.9 can be learned in about 45 seconds, same as sport climbs to the same grade. After that, in both arenas, techniques need to be learned.

Shortcomings!?!?!? has that girl been tellin' lies again?

captain static wrote:IMO it is easier to transfer from trad to sport than vice versa. A couple antecdotes:

TK and I were climbing "No Return" 5.9+ and some young kids came up and flashed "Commencement" 5.11c. After we got down the kids got on "No Return". TK and I got much amusement from watching those kids flail and struggle up it.

Was doing "Minimum Creep" with a good sport climber. They struggled with the crack start even after I gave them the trad beta.

On "Recoil" there is a solid finger lock above the lip of the low overhang that I use every time. My sport climbing friends avoid that lock like the plague.

Thats crazy talk. Have you not seen what happens when strong sport climbers decide to try trad??? They crush. You need to get out more. This sport done moved on...