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here's my 2 cent for what ever it's worth at this point.

First, if victory whips are bad and loosen these fagile bolts then we need to first rethink how we are bolting and if we should be climbing on such fagile rock.

Second,I have been climbing at the RRG for about 8 years now and I have never seen more loose hangers at one location than I have at MV...BUT then again I have never ever climbed at such a new crag. Usually, us non-locals are not invited to these new crags until at least 3 years after they are bolted and all FA's complete.

I think I can safely speak for the majority when I define a "spinner" as a loose bolt hanger attached to a solid bolt. A loose bolt is a bolt that is loose in the hole.

Everytime we talk about MV and all the developers and the owners, we are quick to say they are wonderful and worthy of our praises which I agree is true. Yet it sets up an atmosphere that we are thus not ever to say anything bad about the beloved MV crew. Which makes the people who have legit criticisms feel like they are not being heard.

rhunt wrote:...Yet it sets up an atmosphere that we are thus not ever to say anything bad about the beloved MV crew. Which makes the people who have legit criticisms feel like they are not being heard.

weber wrote:If any of you who have climbed at Muir have specific and constructive criticisms of any route in Muir Valley, please PLEASE contact me via PM and I will personally address your concerns in a respectful manner.

My question is this, what good does it do to make a criticism (whether constructive or not) public? Wouldn't it be easier, if people are really concerned, to voice out their opinions/criticisms directly to the person/committees involved rather than air it out in public? I mean, how hard is it to send out a pm, an e-mail, a phone call, a conversation at Miguel's or RRO? The issue can be taken cared of quicker rather than letting other people pollute the real issue at hand and opening it up to their irrelevant opinions.

For MV issues, here are the contacts:
Karla (squeezindlemmon) friends_of_muirvalley at yahoo dot com
Jared (J-Rock) hancock_jd at yahoo dot com
Tim Powers (t bone) tcp222 at aol dot com
Rick (Weber) rweber at accenttech dot com

For issues in the SR:
Bill Strachan (captain static)
or send a query on their website:
http://www.rrgcc.org/contact.php?PHPSES ... 463c45c6c2

For issues at Torrent Falls:
Mark Meyers
(606) 668-6441
TorrentFalls at MRTC dot com

What about for the rest of the gorge? I'm assuming we can call the Coalition about it, right?

For everyone's awareness, here are other people you can contact -
CAC Officers:
Steve Kauffman - president (Steve)
Jared Hancock (J-Rock)
Mike Susko (Bruisebrother)
Terry Kindred (Sunshine)
Scott Hammond (hamsco)

Local Rep:
Rob Hunter (rhunt)

Sorry if I missed anyone... but these should get people started if they come across any problems in the Gorge.

Note: rhunt or squeezinglemmon, this comment was started before you posted. Please do not construe it as a rebuttal to your posts.

Again we have totally strayed from the original topic. This is not about who bolts the best line. This thread is about safety. After 30 years of using webbing to prevent rubbing the bark off of trees, threading our own gear to prevent wearing out the chains from rope drag, retiring ropes that took a hard fall and (in our younger days, when trad gear and money was hard to come by) sneaking used gear into hospitals to have it x-rayed to verify its integrity, today we argue about the merits of taking a victory whipper?

Point one: To purposely place verifiable or unverifiable unwarranted and undue stress on ANY part of a PUBLIC climbing and safety system is unsafe and inconsiderate for those climbing after you. To do so in order to perform a ritual for PERSONAL celebration and gratification shows an unbelievable level of inconsideration for all that climb in that given area.

For those who want argue the merits of practice falls, go climb a harder route. With the number a routes in the Gorge, I guarantee you can find one to practice your falls on. And if you really want to work on your “head” go place your own trad gear and practice falling on it.

Point two: If an individual(s) goes through the process to find, purchase, develop a climbing area, and open this area to the climbing community, and then this individual makes a request either thru a mandate or a polite question, then this request needs to be honored by all who are guest on his/her property.

There are bolts and anchors in the Red older than many of the individuals posting on this thread. This is not about rather or not the anchor holds you to perform your antics. This is about the unknown weakness created by your antics and the compounded effects of tightening and retightening, exposure to weather and years of repeated use and above all the safety of those who climb behind you.

I can not speak for Rick and the MV developers, but I have never found them opposed to "legit criticism" when it came from a source(s) that had a proven history of listening to the legitimate concerns for the overall climbing community. I’m pretty sure they would listen and be inclusive to all who had the climbing communities best interest at heart.

I have no intention of complaining about anything at MV or criticizing the people who are putting in the time, money (obviously a huge amount given the cost of the road in the valley) and effort to open this climbing preserve for everyone to use. This doesn't mean I won't hesitate to notify them of something that needs to be repaired.

Access to Muir is free. You pay NOTHING to climb there. Climbers are guests at MV, not customers. When you start paying an entrance fee, then complain about what you don't like.

TrueNorth, I am going to say that you do not have a very strong knowlage of modern climbing gear if you think that any fall (esp. a fall from the top of a sport route, where the forces are not very large) will weaken the bolts. If that were even remotely true, then there would be bolts failing every single day at the red, as there are bolts out there that might take 20+ falls PER DAY, and are holding up just fine. Even the old stud bolts that are half way rusted through continue to hold (although, perhaps for not much longer?).

As for "point 1", am guess I am just a thrill seeking danger ranger who likes to take big falls from the tops of sport routes. I see nothing wrong with it from a safety of others standpoint at all. And for you to say that it does is totally and compleaty wrong and irresponable.

rhunt wrote:...

Everytime we talk about MV and all the developers and the owners, we are quick to say they are wonderful and worthy of our praises which I agree is true. Yet it sets up an atmosphere that we are thus not ever to say anything bad about the beloved MV crew. Which makes the people who have legit criticisms feel like they are not being heard.

Not sure what exactly you mean by "legit critisims" but we have always listened -- respectfully and attentatively -- to any CONSTRUCTIVE criticism and will continue to do so in the future. Rude, derisive remarks posted in the RRC on-line Guidebook are not constructive. Constructive comments WILL be heard and responded to. Ask the folks who have done so.

One of many examples that comes to mind is a group of relatively new visitors who essentially said, "hey, the Great Wall is super, but the start of the trail is a swampy mess." But, it didn't stop there. They proposed a solution, and in a matter of weeks built, at their expense, a first rate boardwalk and rerouted a huge section of the approach trail.

Boy, we LOVE this kind of criticism!

Jared and Karla will tell you of several climbers who have complained that some of the routes are dirty and asked for a brush and started scrubbing. This is certainly a nicer, and more constructive, way to address problems than to post a rude remark in the on-line Guidebook.

Rick

Wes: It is not the class 5+ bolts I'm worried about; it is the compressive and tensile strength of the rock. A compressive and tensile strength that varies through out the gorge and from one hole to the next. The size of hole will vary based of the driller’s ability to steady himself and the sharpness of the bit. Additional variables such as angle of fall, your rope (age, length and size), anchor placement and torque distribution all play into the engineering and safety consideration. Take all this and then apply the 20 falls a day you mentioned plus weather, time and erosion and my question to you is why increase the risk?

Anyone, with an engineering background, will tell you repetitive "loading of the anchors" will eventually cause stress and fatigue. To perform unnecessary acts that increases this action and shortens the life and integrity of the system for no other reason then personal gratification is inconsiderate.

Let’s assume with all the variable mentioned above, you and I could not come to engineering based agreement. When other individuals’ lives are involved why take the chance?

If I where to ask, “Wes I would like to try that climb when you get done. I’m not near the climber you are and I’m concerned about the anchors holding me, would you please not put any additional stress on the anchors by taking a victory whipper?” How would you respond?

People are whipping off anchors??!!!

that's what I meant...legit critisims not being the rude kind made on this web page.

I love this web page but this web page is why we are fighting about stupid stuff

at any rate, thanks for your heads up Rick and I will honor your request and not take victory whips on your property. although, I do whip a lot on your property, esp on that jesus wept route..gosh i hope that goes down for me this fall...that thing is soo cool!!