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JH, how did you contribute to the conversation? You just whine and cry and bash everybody and everything. I came into this thread only because you were ignorantly talking trash about the oil workers. Let me ask you this: have you ever spoken to a single oil worker? Asked him how he was doing? Gotten to know one of them? No, probably not. You don't know where they're coming from. You don't care. You're just another out-of-towner who comes here and uses the area and leaves without any regard for the people that live here everyday and work and play and raise families and die. You make fun of them, you talk bad about them, but you never get to know them.

Am I right? Maybe I'm not. Hopefully I'm not. And I hope evryone who reads this does not think I am lumping all out-of-towners into the same category. But there are MANY who do this. I know, I've seen it many times and it sickens me.

You're recreating in those oilworkers backyards. To them, you're the outsider. And you come in and tromp around the woods looking down on anyone who comes along that you think doesn't have what you perceive as culture and education.

One part of me hopes that climbing in that area will always be threatened just so its not easy for the oblivious northern masses can come in and take advantage of the local resources without giving anything back. And I'm not talking about giving back to the climbing community or giving back to the environment so the climbing areas are more aesthetically pleasing. I'm talking about giving back to the local community of which very few of you out there in TV-land are a part of.

I didn't come into this thread discussing legalities. I was pissed because you (JH) are are way out of line and needed to be called on it. And when you PMed me to ask me to delete all my posts on here it seemed to me that you were trying to bury the issue, and that I am not willing to do.

Respond however you like. I've said my peace and don't think I need to say any more. If you don't hear reason then I don't see the point in continuing this. People have had to wade through too much garbage as it is already in this thread.

Umm, yeah, he's from Kentucky.

Hey TD I tried to read Gravity's Rainbow back when you were supposed to to be cool and I couldn't stay with it. I felt less than ,of course, but I just didn't get it. Is Vineland better/worse/ worthreading? Your listening public needs to know.

Dear WT, I read your message and I hear you. It is important to recognize the local population whose backyard we are climbing and carousing in. Contributing to the local economy helps and being respectful to everyone we encounter ,local or not.
Warning soapbox lecture following: If you overhear climbers trashing local people because they lack education, "sophistication" etc. Isn't that about the speaker and their "judging". We can't make people be sensitive to others;each of us has to learn it, often through painful experiences. Having a judging mind that I often struggle with I know those unskillful speakers have some pain to go through to soften their generalizations about "locals" or others. Notice: soapbox closed.

Hey Fuck Face Who you calling a Yankee

Time and place bitch, thats all I want to hear from you now.

LOL!!!!!!!

I didn't call you a "yankee"

This isn’t only about JH. It involves every climber that shares a rope with him, the individual(s) who introduced him to climbing, those who brings him to the Gorge, every individual who puts a harness on and goes through the voice commands with him, each and every one of these individuals are involved. There is nothing, Chris, Jeff, Josh, Tim, Mike, myself, and a multitude of others, can say that will have more impact on JH then those he climbs with.

I regret holding you responsible for someone else’s actions. But you made a conscious decision to allow him into your group. And once you did the whole group became liable.

This issue of “liability” brings us back full circle. If the landowner gives JH permission to be on his/her land, does he/she become liable for JH’s actions?

The legal answer is yes and the degree of liability increases with the landowner’s previous knowledge of the individual’s background and personality.

You can probably see the logic to this statement, Therefore does if not make sense, that those who made a conscience decision, knowing JH’s personality, to allow him to enter into your group, that the group (and the individuals within that group) become liable for his actions.

JH the sad thing is that you obvious see the correlations. You see the threads of logic, but you refuse to follow the path they lead. Rather you want to admit or not, you owe your group of friends more than what I have seen displayed on this thread.

I agree with WT. There is no reason I should continue contributing to this nonsense.

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I also take great offense to J.H.'s comments about oilmen. Both my dad and grandfather were oilmen. I'm willing to bet they worked harder in one year than you ever will J.H. in your entire life, an assumption yes but the tone and content of your messages speak volumes. As for oilmen not working weekends, whatever, oilmen work very hard and often long hours, there is no such thing as holidays in "the patch". I can remember several occasions where we had to postpone Christmas until dad got off work. And as for oil companies being greedy, ok they aren't the most environmentally conscious corporations around, but how many of you ride your bike/walk to the Gorge? Creating a harmonious relationship with the oil company is the only way we can coexist. They were there first and they aren't going away anytime soon. We are recreating on the land that sustains them and their families. I usually don't take offense to message board banter as often posters like J.H. are just trolling, but this one hit home. J.H. your viewpoints are moronic at best and I think climbers' as a whole would rather you keep them to yourself considering you type a lot faster than you think.