Decking at the Lode...

[dustonian]

Yes, actually it does. Let's test this out this weekend. How about you take the whip from the tuna town anchors while I belay you on an ATC?

I don't get it, are you saying you wouldn't catch him? Someone who can't belay safely with an ATC or 8 shouldn't be belaying anyone with anything, period. I'll take an experienced non-locking device belayer over a green "sport belayer" with any of the so-called "auto-locking" devices any day of the week. Much of the problem we have these days is that so many people skip the foundational stages of learning how to belay correctly with the simple non-locking devices. I am very grateful that the "grigri era" began after I learned how to belay.

[caribe]

Caribe - Yes, actually it does. Let's test this out this weekend. How about you take the whip from the tuna town anchors while I belay you on an ATC?

I would have no problem taking a whip on an ATC off Tuna Town or any other clean fall with about 40-50 people + ATC who I could name who are reading this forum. I could throw in another 40 or so who I know are not reading this forum. That is to say no more of a problem taking a whip on an ATC than a Grigri or clickup or whatever--I don't like to fall, but it is part of the business.
-I would not take a fall on an ATC + Meadows, why? Because she has informed me that she does not find the ATC very useful. Meadows has caught my fall before however. I trust her to trust herself.
-Stephanie are you seriously trying to inform me that the Tuna Town fall is just too big or not practicable in some other way with an ATC? You keep referencing Band-Camp or the Motherlode I am not sure which it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH619vxtNdo
I remember back in the day catching Aaron Kupferer on a big fall on either Flux Capacitor or Harvest with a Reverso. Is the TT fall going to be much worse? This is a rhetorical question, my mind is closed regarding your current direction of thought because . . . it's wrong.

[Meadows]

I'm seeing how much he trusts what he's saying and if he believes an ATC is the right device to catch that fall on someone smaller. I would never intentionally drop or threaten to drop someone, and I used an ATC for years.

[dustonian]

Yeah, that's what I thought. I bet Arty would happily whip on your ATC from the anchors... of course, he'd have to get up there first, so you might want to use a locking-assist device for the lengthy dog session beforehand

[Meadows]

I think the ATC is useful - NOT ONCE did I ever say it wasn't. I've only stated that misuse of all climbing devices are possible and I have stated that I have seen misuse with an ATC (I'm gathering that you don't believe me). I never, ever said once device is safer over the other because I fully believe there are situations where there is a better choice.

But if this has lent itself to placing words or making assumptions, I'm out. Enjoy your day.

[Meadows]

I think the ATC is useful - NOT ONCE did I ever say it wasn't. I've only stated that misuse of all climbing devices are possible and I have stated that I have seen misuse with an ATC (I'm gathering that you don't believe me). I never, ever said one device is safer over the other because I fully believe there are situations where there is a better choice.

But if this has lent itself to placing words or making assumptions, I'm out. Enjoy your day.

[Meadows]

Yeah, that's what I thought. I bet Arty would happily whip on your ATC from the anchors... of course, he'd have to get up there first, so you might want to use a locking-assist device for the lengthy dog session beforehand

Art has in the recent past (at the razing) "happily" whipped all over my SUM too.

[caribe]

. . . .

If you are comfortable with the ATC, I will climb on it with you. After all this sketchiness in-and-around the Sum, I would rather you use an ATC than the Sum. Why would you use the Tuna Town example? Why do you think I would not want to whip on the ATC? I am really confused. What point are you trying to make? As Dusti said, we'd have to get me to the chains first . . . the first bit is easy, but the route gets difficult (for me) before I kiss the chains. I could probably do bolt to bolt. Never tried. I fell and said fuck it; come back stronger.

[caribe]

Art has in the recent past (at the razing) "happily" whipped all over my SUM too.

I had no reason to doubt the device before other than all the moving parts. That fact has changed.

[TradMike]

Give me a grigri and fat rope (10.5). It will lock up on its own every time, works in any direction, you probably couldn't hold the cam down in a fall even if you had a death grip on it and if the belayer passes out or gets hit by a rock or the climber then you are still on belay. I have tried to hold the cam down with a simulated fall using a 10.5 rope and could not do it. It was actually quite painful how forcefully my hand was thrown off the cam. Now a thinner rope, I am pretty sure I could hold the cam down and deck the climber but have not tried it since I don't own one of those dental floss ropes. The only downside is the rope management vs. an ATC but with practice the extra safety margin is worth it.