Community Meeting - Nov 9th

[climb2core]

Speaking of grey area, I think someone has project draws on Nagypapa. It is clearly not too steep to clean.

Wait, please correct me if I am wrong... But isn't Military in the Clifty Wilderness where there is a policy by the land owner... NO project or fixed draws permitted? Nothing grey about that.

[ynp1]

It is also on FS land and should be taken down ASAP!

[dustonian]

Ok, I'll correct you Ian. It is in DBNF, but not Clifty. Still, fixed draws there are considered undesirable "left gear" and a potential obstacle to access and good relations with the powers that be... but then, the same could be said of bolts/hangers/trad anchors, so the distinction is arbitrary. The USFS has thus far been turning a blind eye to the draws on Nagypapa and the Legend (correct me if I'm wrong Bill), of course that could change at any time. The horribly eroded trail and base of the cliffs at LF and M, in addition to the frequent accidents and accumulation of litter at the crags, are bigger concerns in my opinion.

[tutugirl]

I wanted to go but 6 hours of driving in bad weather by myself could not be done this time...we had a lot of rain and horrendous wind up here. I am sure the right decisions will be made.

[climb2core]

Ok, I'll correct you Ian. It is in DBNF, but not Clifty. Still, fixed draws there are considered undesirable "left gear" and a potential obstacle to access and good relations with the powers that be... but then, the same could be said of bolts/hangers/trad anchors, so the distinction is arbitrary. The USFS has thus far been turning a blind eye to the draws on Nagypapa and the Legend (correct me if I'm wrong Bill), of course that could change at any time. The horribly eroded trail and base of the cliffs at LF and M, in addition to the frequent accidents and accumulation of litter at the crags, are bigger concerns in my opinion.

Thanks for clarifying... While in agreement that there are other issues that need addressing, I can't help but think of the old adage "Two wrongs don't make right". Leaving gear over night on NFS should not be excused by bad trails or trash.

[Yasmeen]

well, it was a hoot. I think there was a consensus drawn. I took away several things from the meeting. Most people I agree with, at least the ones that showed up to the meeting. There were a couple of glassy-eyed types but they didn't rule the day. We came to a vote and pretty much the status quo rules the day. I have a shit load of video from the meeting. The audio is probably better than my videography. If any one is interested in seeing it I think I can send it.

Post them up on Youtube!

http://xkcd.com/949/

[Clevis Hitch]

So what I took away from the meeting by the vote taking is that most people abstained from voting. In fact there were four people for adopting language that said that "You climb at your own risk". One agianst and 12 abstentions. So clearly there isn't any sort of mandate either for or against any action. One of the concentration of efforts by the thin crowd was that historically, any gear left at the crag, whether overnight as a Project draw or as a perma-draw or as a cleaning draw(safety) are at risk of being absconded and should be considered "abandoned gear" with one disenting opinion from shannon who tried to define PD's of any denomination as "unattended gear" and affording them some sort of legal standing as "unattended" property, but I can say from my observation of the crowd and the conversation that no one was willing to agree(to anything) to that definition. I interjected, that when bolters bolt routes that they are not resonsible for maintenanceof gear that they equip the route with, and that when the gear is placed-that the equipper surrenders all property rights and said gear enters "Public Domain" and can be disposed of by anyone who may encounter said gear.

At least that is the nearest that I could glean from the conversation and that is with a slight bias in the direction of my opinion (obviously). So concluding from the vote taking I can positively say that nothing was agreed to with the majority of climbers abstaining from the vote.

[climb2core]

So what I took away from the meeting by the vote taking is that most people abstained from voting. In fact there were four people for adopting language that said that "You climb at your own risk". One agianst and 12 abstentions. So clearly there isn't any sort of mandate either for or against any action. One of the concentration of efforts by the thin crowd was that historically, any gear left at the crag, whether overnight as a Project draw or as a perma-draw or as a cleaning draw(safety) are at risk of being absconded and should be considered "abandoned gear" with one disenting opinion from shannon who tried to define PD's of any denomination as "unattended gear" and affording them some sort of legal standing as "unattended" property, but I can say from my observation of the crowd and the conversation that no one was willing to agree(to anything) to that definition. I interjected, that when bolters bolt routes that they are not resonsible for maintenanceof gear that they equip the route with, and that when the gear is placed-that the equipper surrenders all property rights and said gear enters "Public Domain" and can be disposed of by anyone who may encounter said gear.

At least that is the nearest that I could glean from the conversation and that is with a slight bias in the direction of my opinion (obviously). So concluding from the vote taking I can positively say that nothing was agreed to with the majority of climbers abstaining from the vote.

Maybe, I am missing something Joe... but it sounds like it was a waste of time and gas money?

[caribe]

accumulation of litter at the crags, are bigger concerns in my opinion.

I find that the litter is less from climbers and more from hikers and campers and people throwing shit off the top of the cliffs. We need to do something about the fact that the gumbies are racing to Mr. Bungle and making new trails to do so. The impact from off trail access up at LF is ugly. Who do we ask permission to do trail work?

[dustonian]

Hard and fast rules are destined to fail. Chris Kalous said it best on mountainproject.com:

... this sounds like a bunch of kids trying to hammer out the rules to kick the can or something. Only children want ethics to be black and white, no negotiation, what works here and now will work everywhere and always. The only rule is don't be an asshole. For example:

This guy stealing draws: asshole.

Aiding up any free route that is too hard for you just to take gear: asshole, no, I take that back, just sad and lonely

Taking a skanky draw that is a few bolts up and obviously a bail-off: not an asshole.

Pulling bolts, hangers, or chains off a route: asshole

Pulling bolts and hangers off a piece of shite that the community has decided is a waste of space and an eye-sore: not an asshole

Leaving draws up on yer proj regardless of the grade at a sport area: not an asshole

Leaving unsightly pre-placed gear or ropes up at a known trad area: asshole

Leaving pre-placed gear up on a your new route that is in the middle of no-where while you work it: not an asshole

Fixed mini-traxion ropes left on classic or popular routes: asshole

Mini-traxion ropes left out of clear site on the Amazing Obscuro Dome: well, actually, you are still probably an asshole and need to find some friends.

Leaving up fixed ropes for your personal photograper/videographer: professional asshole

Leaving behind fixed ropes in an emergency or accident: not an asshole (but you oughta try and go get them)

Pulling obviously (because you live there and have talked with anyone who would know and have been looking at them for 5 years) abandoned and rotten and dangerous draws off a route: not an asshole

Threading a fixed anchor that has biners so you can take them or pulling all but one piece out of a fixed anchor: asshole (and idiot)

Finding half somebody's rack strung out on a pitch after a rain storm and NOT making an effort to post a note or talk to the local shop, etc.: asshole

Keeping said rack after a reasonable and satisfying attempt by you to find the defendant: not an asshole

Lying to the face of said party about having gear or refusing to return it: greedy asshole in need of a beating

Pulling an unknown bail anchor: not an asshole

Pulling an unknown piece that somebody stuck: not an asshole

Pulling a piece that a party above you left and NOT offering it back at the next common belay or back in camp: asshole

Pulling a piece that belongs to somebody you know (even barely, even if you don't like him/her) and not offering it back at your convenience: asshole (this one will get a "yeah, but...", but, sorry, you are an asshole)

Doing anything that in yer gut makes you feel like a dick: well?

If in your next breathe you have to start some convoluted defense of your actions: hmmm?

But, sometimes doing what you want may require you to be an asshole. New routing tactics, for example, often infringe on others in many ways. Accept it, minimize it, and if somebody confronts you don't launch into a tirade about how rad you are and what a gumby he is. Instead, apologize, explain why its necessary, and how you will do this or that to make it right. A decent person sprouts from the ashes of an asshole.

Just do the right thing. You don't need an ethics manual rolled up in your back pocket to check. We have all crossed the asshole line, and gleefully pulled so and so's stuck gear while mumbling "gumby" under our breathe, but was that junky cam worth our fleeting ego trip? What makes you feel better is "hey, slim, I managed to get yer cam out of Vigorous Vaj up on the Gargantua, want it back?" He or she might say no anyway.

And if fixed draws bum you out, so should bolts, and so don't go sport climbing (you are also gonna need a time machine). Eldo awaits- just try to ignore all the tat hanging off the fixed pins and slung horns and trees...

Finally, the golden circle- be cool to those you meet out there, they just might be pulling traction on yer broken femur a few minutes later while you wail like, well, an asshole.