RRC Archives

EricDorsey wrote:

captain static wrote:IMHO, as long as the view towards PD's remains climber-centric, the issue will continue to present access problems.

I don't understand, isn't the entire southern region climber centric? Who else goes down there besides climbers and meth heads breaking into cars..?

The people who own the property. Hopefully, your post is in jest?

captain static wrote:A couple of weeks ago I attended the Access Fund's National Access & Stewardship Summit. One of the sessions was a discussion of fixed anchor issues including perma-draws. What struck me about this discussion was the climber-centric views expressed just like on this thread. Last fall I had the pleasure of speaking to the annual meeting of the Kentucky Chapter of the Sierra Club about the RRGCC and climbing in RRG. Afterwords, I received many compliments and was told I should have included more climbing pictures. Then one of the old timers came up to me and stated, "Bolts are trash". Did anyone ask Grant Stephens or John Haight for permission to put up PD's? No, that is one reason they closed the area. On USFS land no new fixed gear is allowed without prior approval. Then why would anyone do so? Has anyone asked the private property owners of the Lode or any other private area for permission to install PD's? Not to my knowledge except for Muir Valley where all fixed anchor activity is managed by the owner. IMHO, as long as the view towards PD's remains climber-centric, the issue will continue to present access problems.

Well put Bill!

Green3 wrote:Removing draws so people don't get on routes over their head has nothing to do with showing respect for the land and helping maintain access. It's just a pain in the ass when you want to warm-up or redpoint something. People climb at the Motherlode because it is the pinnacle of RRG-style steep climbing. Removing draws will not change that. It will just make way for bad gear to be put back up where there was once steel gear. Are you going to police the lode every day to remove gear? Why not use that time to encourage more sustainable land-use and biner replacement.

Anything that gets more manky "perma" aluminum gear on the wall is bad. We had/have fundraisers to pay for these, and someone decides to take them down because they don't like them? WTF. I don't climb at the Lode but this is garbage.

I was among the climbers who removed the perma-draws from the undertow yesterday. I have been climbing at the RED longer than I haven't. I have made contributions to the RRGC, the perma-bolting fundraiser at Miguel's for the last two years, and give personally to the crags which i visit everyday I visit them. For me removing the perma-draws at the undertow yesterday was a positive change for the local climbing community at the RED. This is my opinion.
So everyone knows the permanent draws on the undertow were taken down yesterday. As was stated previously all the draws removed were organized by route and are available to the donating parties. The climbtek draws will most likely replace any bad anchors and or bad gear in the madness cave. All parties involved were aware that the climbtek draws were purchased by donation and have no intention of taking them permanently from the motherlode.
I'd start by saying that a large part of my involvement at the undertow yesterday had a lot to do with "leave no trace" ethics. Yes, climbing at any crag has an inherent impact on that area (chalk, bolts, dogs and simple physical presence). It's because of this inherent impact that I feel like any reduction in unnecessary impact to the crag should be welcomed by every user group. I am surprised by the change in the accepted level of impact at the RED over the last ten years. The undertow looked beautiful at the end of the day yesterday.
Another motive for me was to address the issue of "gear responsibility". I am personally for the idea of individual climbers: climbing on gear that they have inspected on the ground, impacting either their own gear or gear they have permission to use and being skilled enough to apply that gear safely. I understand the convenience of fixed-gear but to me convenience is a distant second to responsible climbing at the crag.
Also I view the efforts of a local climbing community installing fixed-gear at a crag as a service to visiting climbers. Its is a local way of making a crag more accessible. It is a privilege. In my view that privilege has proven undeserved. That conclusion is based on what I've observed to be "normal" climbing practices at the lode. This includes but is not limited to: inadequate knowledge of safe climbing/belaying techniques, excessive individual impact (large dog to climber ratios, music and excessive noise at the crag, excessive ticking, little to no cleaning and brushing of holds, improper handling of human waste and garbage, etc.), etc.
I find it frustrating to read comments which encourage climbers at the RED to not think for themselves. I am specifically referring to "kafish2's" comment about the irrelevancy of right and wrong due to established norms at the crag. You might not have been around for it but the norms at the RED a decade ago were quite different. I'd encourage everyone concerned to really think about what climbing at the RED is like these days. Roadside is closed. A crag owned by long-term local CLIMBERS is closed due to the "norms" or normal climbing practices of climbers at the RED.
I am not sure how many people following this post were at the Rocktoberfest this year. For those of you that were and that have seen the video put out by the RRGCC to encourage participation in the Coalition there was a ten minute segment by Matt Tackett which explained clearly the negative consequences of climber impact on climbing access at the RRG. If you havent seen it its worth watching. The Coalition and Mr. Tackett both did an excellent job.
It's evident people feel strongly about what happened yesterday. But to be quite honest it's been a long time coming.
I'd like to thank "pigsteak" for his involvement in this discussion. He's dank as fuck!

Also, any draws left on the undertow for any extended period of time will be cleaned and left at the base of the climb. If anyone has any suggestions for other locations to leave cleaned draws please comment.

cletuswilcox wrote:I was among the climbers who removed the perma-draws from the undertow yesterday. I have been climbing at the RED longer than I haven't. I have made contributions to the RRGC, the perma-bolting fundraiser at Miguel's for the last two years, and give personally to the crags which i visit everyday I visit them. For me removing the perma-draws at the undertow yesterday was a positive change for the local climbing community at the RED. This is my opinion.
So everyone knows the permanent draws on the undertow were taken down yesterday. As was stated previously all the draws removed were organized by route and are available to the donating parties. The climbtek draws will most likely replace any bad anchors and or bad gear in the madness cave. All parties involved were aware that the climbtek draws were purchased by donation and have no intention of taking them permanently from the motherlode.
I'd start by saying that a large part of my involvement at the undertow yesterday had a lot to do with "leave no trace" ethics. Yes, climbing at any crag has an inherent impact on that area (chalk, bolts, dogs and simple physical presence). It's because of this inherent impact that I feel like any reduction in unnecessary impact to the crag should be welcomed by every user group. I am surprised by the change in the accepted level of impact at the RED over the last ten years. The undertow looked beautiful at the end of the day yesterday.
Another motive for me was to address the issue of "gear responsibility". I am personally for the idea of individual climbers: climbing on gear that they have inspected on the ground, impacting either their own gear or gear they have permission to use and being skilled enough to apply that gear safely. I understand the convenience of fixed-gear but to me convenience is a distant second to responsible climbing at the crag.
Also I view the efforts of a local climbing community installing fixed-gear at a crag as a service to visiting climbers. Its is a local way of making a crag more accessible. It is a privilege. In my view that privilege has proven undeserved. That conclusion is based on what I've observed to be "normal" climbing practices at the lode. This includes but is not limited to: inadequate knowledge of safe climbing/belaying techniques, excessive individual impact (large dog to climber ratios, music and excessive noise at the crag, excessive ticking, little to no cleaning and brushing of holds, improper handling of human waste and garbage, etc.), etc.
I find it frustrating to read comments which encourage climbers at the RED to not think for themselves. I am specifically referring to "kafish2's" comment about the irrelevancy of right and wrong due to established norms at the crag. You might not have been around for it but the norms at the RED a decade ago were quite different. I'd encourage everyone concerned to really think about what climbing at the RED is like these days. Roadside is closed. A crag owned by long-term local CLIMBERS is closed due to the "norms" or normal climbing practices of climbers at the RED.
I am not sure how many people following this post were at the Rocktoberfest this year. For those of you that were and that have seen the video put out by the RRGCC to encourage participation in the Coalition there was a ten minute segment by Matt Tackett which explained clearly the negative consequences of climber impact on climbing access at the RRG. If you havent seen it its worth watching. The Coalition and Mr. Tackett both did an excellent job.
It's evident people feel strongly about what happened yesterday. But to be quite honest it's been a long time coming.
I'd like to thank "pigsteak" for his involvement in this discussion. He's dank as fuck!

Extra points for the subtle Sam Cooke reference.

What routes are you presently working Wilcox?

And why didn't you strip the cave?

Cletus, thanks for the well written and well thought out response. I cannot argue your logic here. My support for perma-draws arrives from the historical norm that they eventually get hung, might as well make them as safe as possible. It does not stem from is the act right or wrong but just an acceptance that it happens. I have never thought that this would change because we have not had a permanent gear police, as the RRGCC has stated that is not their responsibility and there is no other governing body that takes on this role. If what you are saying is that this is more than a one time event, that this removal of permanent gear will continue then that negates my point that the steel draws are the lesser evil. I hope you and your crew really do have the energy to continue this effort, it would create a safer and more responsible climbing community. However, if you cannot it would just encourage the replacement of them by aluminum gear as history shows. Good luck, I will make sure not to leave my draws up at the lode to make your job a little easier. Afterall, I have the feeling that this will be an immense undertaking to maintain these actions but you are right that if it is maintained it may help us all to climb a little more respectfully.

Jason, I'm currently climbing on fall city and swingline. If you'd like to clean swingline I'll hang the draws. Michelle, do you really need me to explain to you why we didn't clean the madness cave. If you'd like to clean it please be sure to leave cleaning draws well placed cleaning draws on the routes.