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Re: ACCESS TO ROADSIDE - closed unttil further notice
Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 12:49 am
by weber
Wes wrote:The only way to change behavior at climbing areas is via mandatory, enforceable access restrictions. While there are plenty of individual exceptions, the climbing community as a whole will never, ever be capable of self policing. Period. A car full of people set to climb at a crag will never see the lot at 95% full, and think "oh, we should find someplace less crowded". Or if they do, it is only to avoid waiting in line, never because they are concerned about their impact - "no single snowflake ever feels responsible for an avalanche". I have seen it all over the US, and I have found creative ways to park at over full lots many times, and, truthfully, never thought of anything other then the routes/problems that await. I even walked right past the NO TRESPASSING at pocket wall when they first went up, because they obviously don't apply to climbers, just ATV's or other people. I hope I have become somewhat more enlighten / informed these days and would do the right thing now, but the masses of uninformed, unenlightened outgrow the reasonable people at a pretty fast pace.
My advice to John and Grant, based on what I have seen at Torrent and other places is to fully close roadside for at least year, then work out a way for mandatory, enforceable permits. Nothing less will cause any changes. And, if you feel that 20 is a good number of people for a day, then set up your permits for 15, because people will still find a way / flat out disregard any limit you set. In three years you will be amazed at the difference in how roadside looks. Torrent was one of the more abused crags, and I shudder to think at what it would look like today without the limits that are in place. Even if it is closed, you can still do informal trail days - those work well at torrent, though Bob has probably done 90% of the work himself, because that is just the kind of guy he is. There are enough responsible climbers that you will have enough support for some trail days if you choose to have them...
Mandatory, enforceable permits? Fifteen permits per day at Roadside?
Currently, Roadside sees 112 climbers on a Sat or Sun when the lot has 35 cars per day. (based on the stat we see here in the Red of 3.2 climbers per vehicle)
That's one solution and we respect your right to express it. If you were to concurrently apply that same plan to the other crags in the Red, you would be turning away 90% of the climbers wanting to enjoy this rock. What Grant and Bob choose to do is their right, their property, and their business. For the record, Liz and I will do whatever we can to keep Muir open to as many
(within reasonable limits) as long as we can. Someday, it may come to permits, but then we'll hope to arrive at more realistic numbers. It's very easy to propose draconian measures like enforceable permits. It is much more difficult to implement such a plan for preserves the size of the PMRP and Muir.
Rick
Re: ACCESS TO ROADSIDE - closed unttil further notice
Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 1:21 am
by Toad
weber wrote:Wes wrote:...And, if you feel that 20 is a good number of people for a day, then set up your permits for 15...
Mandatory, enforceable permits? Fifteen permits per day at Roadside?
Rick
Pssst. It sounded like an off the cuff number, ultimately being set by what the owners feel is good.
Re: ACCESS TO ROADSIDE - closed unttil further notice
Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 1:52 am
by pigsteak
Thanks for stepping up Michael. Good luck in rehab. Grant and John, are the routes and fixed draws only a small part of your concern, and really the bigger issue is the crowds and impact? If so, I am with Wes and please keep it closed until a workable solution is in place. We'd all hate to lose RS permanently.
Re: ACCESS TO ROADSIDE - closed unttil further notice
Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 1:58 am
by Eric Cox
EGRoy wrote:I like the idea of getting Miguels on-board to help disseminate information. I presume if Miguel had a website it would get higher traffic from out-of-towners than RRC. A Miguels website could be a useful platform for forewarning the weekend crowd about rules, ethics, closures etc. and directing them to muir, pmrp and RRC websites. What could also be useful would be to show people is a timeline of what the cliffs looked like 40 years ago 20 years ago and now, and what the future could look like. Reading materials that don't sound like rules and regulations may be helpful too, like essays that cover topics from crag ethics, zen of climbing, and so forth... It would be best to get all this to visitors before they arrive, but having this sort of information out and visible at Miguels would be good too.
This is a good idea as long as you know to look on line before you come here or you happen to be staying at Miguel's. I have a better idea. Print off all the rules for all the crags and bring them to me here at Land of the Arches Campground. While you are at it. bring 3 additional copies and I'll hand deliver them to Red River Gorge Inn, Lago Linda and Pine Crest Camp Lodge Campground. That way, all the climber friendly campgrounds will have them. I would hope that if people knew the rules, they would follow them.
Re: ACCESS TO ROADSIDE - closed unttil further notice
Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 2:05 am
by Toad
There really is only one rule.
Don't fuck it up.
Re: ACCESS TO ROADSIDE - closed unttil further notice
Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 2:07 am
by weber
Toad wrote:weber wrote:Wes wrote:...And, if you feel that 20 is a good number of people for a day, then set up your permits for 15...
Mandatory, enforceable permits? Fifteen permits per day at Roadside?
Rick
Pssst. It sounded like an off the cuff number, ultimately being set by what the owners feel is good.
One per day; 100 per day. Still an onerous job to administer and enforce - especially with no revenue stream.
Re: ACCESS TO ROADSIDE - closed unttil further notice
Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 2:26 am
by GStephens
Just to be clear, the problems at Roadside are not permadraws. It is greater than that. Roadside is simply a crag in a 80+ acre nature preserve. It has been loved to death by over use. It continues to deteriorate. Want to see Roadside 20 years ago? Stroll over to Andromeda Strain - there are ferns, vibrant green moss, old growth trees - it is fabulous. Remember, Roadside is in the Graining Fork Nature Preserve. This is intended to be a special place for years to come. Instead it has become an outdoor climbing gym.
As far as the permadraws, would you appreciate someone painting your house without asking first? No one has free reign to make any "improvements" without asking us first. Permadraws are convenient, but they look like crap, particularly in a nature preserve. Try putting them on Twinkie and see how long the USFS allows climbing in the Red. Bolts are fairly hidden, draws are an eyesore.
These decisions John and I make are not knee jerk. We consider the ramifications of our choices thoroughly before we act. I assure you, every comment on this forum has already been discussed by John and I. Speaking for myself, I appreciate the gracious support I have encountered here.
We know much of the problem is the result of non-locals. Lets get the word out as best we can and let Roadside heal a bit. It deserves it. We are placing signs in the next few days, as well as at Miguel's. This will help. The permit system will be very smooth and will serve all of us well.
Re: ACCESS TO ROADSIDE - closed unttil further notice
Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 2:30 am
by the lurkist
reading these posts and in reference to my first post about how to reach the masses, I think Wes put his finger on it. The commonality/ common medium that every climber has to go through to get to a cliff is the cliff itself. If you are trying to get a message across to the un- intune careless entitled climber, they will get the message when they show up to their favorite cliff and find it closed. A sign detailing why it is closed would help. I think serial closures of the impacted cliffs might make the point.
As to the concern that climbers and their impacts would be displaced and thereby concentrated onto fewer cliffs, perhaps. However I think the numbers have swelled because of the amount of developed cliff. I don't think it is any coincidence that MV has seen numbers explode. It above all areas has accommodated the numbers. Climbers are like cockroaches- if you give them food and shelter they will proliferate. If you take away their sustenance their numbers may shrink. Seriously, if the word got out that the Red was having access problems and cliff closures, people traveling from far will make other choices with their travel plans. This is particularly true for the low end routes. (hard truth but still truth, I feel)
Re: ACCESS TO ROADSIDE - closed unttil further notice
Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 2:32 am
by pigsteak
grant, we know each other so I am clearly not trying to be a jerk....Twinkie has the exact same chain draws. I thought it was a bad idea there too, btw.
Re: ACCESS TO ROADSIDE - closed unttil further notice
Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 2:39 am
by the lurkist
Just to give the background, a fairly serious trail day effort to harden the bases of the slabs occured 8 years ago (there about) with Johnny, Ryan, and a handful of strong backs . Retaining walls, fill, shoring up degraded slopes, etc was done. Obviously it hasn't lasted. I mention this to point out how much RS needs a rest and some serious active rehab during that rest.