POTENTIAL CLOSURE OF TORRENT FALLS CRAG

[Spragwa]

every time I manage a volunteer effort it takes time away from what I could be doing to clear my own plate.

This is a comment for another forum but I will say that the benefits of building a volunteer base far outweigh the temporary inconvenience that you may experience while building it. I've heard this excuse before from someone else and I disagree with the premis.

[littleboxes15]

I'm fairly new to the Red and this site so saying this might be a little beyond my bounds, but in this situation I feel as though a little outside perspective could be useful.

Several weeks ago, myself and two experienced, well known locals went climbing at Torrent Falls. While there we ran into another group which happened to include two more of the Red's most renowned and respected individuals. Now because of their history here and familiarity with the area I'm going to assume that each of the four knew the rules and regulations at Torrent, and yet at no point did I witness any attempt to "police" each other (even though there was clearly rule breaking going on) or educate me, the new climber, about the issues mentioned in this thread . Now the latter may have been because I am not always the most receptive when it comes to being informed of my own ignorance, but guess what, that is no excuse. Those climbers who intentionally do as they wish regardless of how it affects others won't like being told either, but they must be, over and over and over again, until they get the picture or get out. That is the responsibility you all bear as senior members of the Red River Gorge community, and because I now know the burden falls squarely upon my own shoulders too.
Moral of the story: Before you point the finger at everything and everyone else, look to yourself. I'd be willing to bet that every person who reads this has been part of the problem (if only because they were not part of the solution) at some point or another. To quote Gandhi "...be the change you wish to see in the world..."

[charlie]

Spragwa, clearly I'm not doing a very good job explaining myself today. I did not mean to imply volunteers are forbidden or unwelcome. You know as well as I do they are the backbone of most everything that gets accomplished around here.

Let me use this scenario to try and demonstrate my point. If someone wanted to volunteer to make a kiosk, write some info, hand out fliers, and print stuff then they don't need permission from the BOD to get moving. A simple opportunity to review the info before it's finalized would be all we would want and in this case the main stakeholders are Mark and his family. If they are cool with it then I don't see how we wouldn't be.

Volunteer efforts are awesome, but people are smart enough and have enough resource to not require us to hold their hands. Simple tasks like this should not be held up because of BOD resource limitations. We're all in the RRGCC, all we request is a little coordination in case things get tricky but you are all smart enough to not need to have your direction handed down from us. We really don't know much more than any of you an in many cases we know less.

That was what I was trying to say but I've been stumbling over my words lately.

[Spragwa]

Thanks for the clarification Charlie. I know there are people who have been frustrated in the past. It's good of you to make the point that the current BOD is much more open and supportive of individual efforts. I wasn't trying to be a sh@# (sensored so as not to conflict with the topic at hand).

[pigsteak]

littleboxes....thanks for that input. i think every single one of us has pee'd or pooped in Mark's yard at some time in our storied history. I also admit to fluffing the donation box on purpose.

[Cliff Heindel]

So, is it really a problem if Mr. Meyer and his family were to close the crag except to people who
visited their business?

[caribe]

Much of the problem appears to be money and traffic. Don't call it a donation; just say that it costs 2$ (or whatever) per climber, period. The more $ it costs to climb the less traffic you will get. At some point equilibrium between seller (owner) and buyer (climber) is reached as is the case in all dynamic systems.

The kiosk is too easy to ignore. Lets put a sign that can't be missed by newbies. After Sunshine told us what the issues are we are paying $ each time we visit.

Let's fix the problem for you Mark so access is preserved and no hard feelings exist on your side of the equation. The equation must be balanced. Our gratitude for your being a 'nice guy' is not going to repay your expenses.

[dipsi]

You know, it's this simple.....do unto others. I think I am preaching to the choir when I say this though, because, obviously, the good folk posting here are not the problem.

I would hate to see Torrent or Muir closed, but I also hate to see beautiful people like the Meyers and the Webers abused. We are not entitled to climb at Torrent, or Muir, or the rest of the Red for that matter.

The Red is a gift. A wonderful gift we need to appreciate and honor.

Thank you, Mark and Kathy, and Rick and Liz. Whatever your decisions, Namaste!

[captain static]

The rules and education are necessary because we need to express that torrent is not the motherload.

Just because you are in the "middle of nowhere" does not mean that rude behavior is acceptable. The owners of the Lode come around very infrequently and rude behavior may be even more repulsive to them than to the Meyers who are somewhat used to climbers. Remember that it was climber rudeness to oil workers that set off the whole situation with the PMRP and Southern Region access. Rude behavior would also not be acceptable in a wilderness area such as the Clifty Wilderness (i.e. Funk Rock City) where conditions of solitude are valued. In the LAC meetings there have been non-climbers who expressed that they considered chalk & bolts to be "trash". We are guests whether we climb on public or private land.

[J-Rock]

Mark's notice about the potential cliff closure has been posted on the bulletin board at Climb Time Towers in Indy. Education is definitely a step in the right direction.

Of course, like most of the others have already said in one form or another, "A little bit of courtesy and common sense will go a long way".

Many thanks to Mark and his family for allowing public climbing on their private property . Hopefully by expressing your concerns and frustrations there will be a positive change concerning the climbing community as a whole (especially at Torrent Falls.. and maybe it will spread elsewhere as more people are properly educated).