The Big Bang has nothing to do with evolution theory.
What pisses me off is when "Christians" say, "I've studied both and..." when, in fact, they've studied neither, barely reading the Bible, and just reading the pamphlet they got at the church that explains evolution (as explained by a "non-believer"). Evolution happens. It can be observed in bacteria and small plants and animals. With more complex animals and plants it takes many generations and therefore hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands, or even millions of years to be observed. We have a fossil record and more and more advanced observations of genetics which utterly fail to disprove the general theory of evolution. And if God just put the fossils in the rocks to fuck with us then God sucks. He/She sucks ass. So I just don't buy it. But then again I think the universe is God and it's bigger than anything we can ever hope to conceive and the earth is just a tiny little speck in the universe and we're on it and we can't even hope to imagine we can explain everything that's going on here much less the universe but with each step in the process we learn more, improve more, and move closer to being completely one with the universe.
Put another way, the Bible is less than 1000 pages while millions of pages support evolution with thousands added every month.
beating bible-ers
The definition of evolution is so simple and it's reality so self evident that one can not honestly deny it. Evolution is the change in gene variation frequencies in a population as a function of time. So if 50% of the population has variant A of a gene and 50% has variant B at time t then at time t+x the ratio changes to 49%:51% then evolution has occured. In effect, any time an idividual is born or dies evolution has occured because this ratio changes slightly. Selection for who is born and who dies can significantly shift this ratio but in fact evolution occurs much more rapidly in small populations, not due to selection, but to chance.
Ultra - not even close. How many religious people only do things (or don't do things) because they are afraid of going to hell or not getting in to heaven. Us poor non-religious folk actually do good things and live good lives simply for their own value, not because of any fear of retribution or some want of an eternal payoff. Now, what god would create a being with an incredible curiosity streak and the ability to search out and quantify the world around him but then make everything about himself contradict the knowledge being gained? Ha ha.
The theory of evolution is just as stupid as the theories of gravity and electromagnetism.
What? After all this fashionable but vague secular humanism? I'd say a little honest-to-goodness Bible-thumping is refreshing in comparison.Christian wrote:
You know, mgad, you are obviously an intelligent and spiritual person and I actually agree with most of what you have said on this thread but this really feels like "sideways evangelism": a sort of passive /aggressive missionary work...please stop it.
ZSpider
Paul3eb, I know you got a lot riding on the morality issue. I've been in your shoes. I won't throw stones so don't patronize me, it's juvenile.
Alan Evil, You are so full of yourself. You don't even know what the "theory" of Intelligent Design includes....That's right...."INCLUDES"
Danny, "Evolution is the change in gene variation frequencies in a population as a function of time." Mutations of this sort as proclaimed by the theory of evolution don't work. i.e. horse + donkey = mule. A vastly stronger animal, yes, but it is sterile and unable to propagate its species. The type of mutations you are speaking of can occur in lower animals such as bacteria only.
Saxman, Your question is irrelevant. The truth is what the truth is. Nothing more, nothing less. Your not liking it doesn't change it. All the whining in the world won't change a thing. There are reasons for your behavior, but not excuses.
Alan Evil, You are so full of yourself. You don't even know what the "theory" of Intelligent Design includes....That's right...."INCLUDES"
Danny, "Evolution is the change in gene variation frequencies in a population as a function of time." Mutations of this sort as proclaimed by the theory of evolution don't work. i.e. horse + donkey = mule. A vastly stronger animal, yes, but it is sterile and unable to propagate its species. The type of mutations you are speaking of can occur in lower animals such as bacteria only.
Saxman, Your question is irrelevant. The truth is what the truth is. Nothing more, nothing less. Your not liking it doesn't change it. All the whining in the world won't change a thing. There are reasons for your behavior, but not excuses.
I'm not talking about mutations per se, I was only providing the definition of evolution given that there is genetic variation in the population. All natural populations have genetic variation. For example if you sequence a particular gene from a bunch of different people there will be slightly different variations of the gene in different individuals. An example that many people are familiar with is the hemoglobin gene where one variant of this gene causes sickle cell anemia. Now say that 500 million people have the sickle cell variant and 5500 million people have other types. The frequency of the sickle cell variant is then 500 million/6000 million. If a baby is born with the sickle cell variant the frequency changes to (500 million + 1 / 6000 million + 1) and evolution has occured.Danny, "Evolution is the change in gene variation frequencies in a population as a function of time." Mutations of this sort as proclaimed by the theory of evolution don't work. i.e. horse + donkey = mule. A vastly stronger animal, yes, but it is sterile and unable to propagate its species. The type of mutations you are speaking of can occur in lower animals such as bacteria only.
Thats not a mutation on the scale that would accomplish an "Evolution".Not even close. If you progress along those lines of thinking then cancer becomes part of the "evolutionary" framework.
Just a side note......theoretical mathamatitions...no wait....mathimatitions....thats not right....math------ions.there close enough. have concluded that the compounded improbabilities that would have had to have happened for evolution to work...are just too big of a number. They have concluded that although there is nothing that is truly "impossible" the odds on favorite for them, is that there is a designer. An "Intelligent Designer"
You like apples? Well how do you like them apples? (sorry I couldn't resist)
Just a side note......theoretical mathamatitions...no wait....mathimatitions....thats not right....math------ions.there close enough. have concluded that the compounded improbabilities that would have had to have happened for evolution to work...are just too big of a number. They have concluded that although there is nothing that is truly "impossible" the odds on favorite for them, is that there is a designer. An "Intelligent Designer"
You like apples? Well how do you like them apples? (sorry I couldn't resist)
Last edited by Ultra on Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Danny, also . You could have made your point better if you had pointed out that Sickle Cell anemia was developed in Africa as a genetic response to malaria. Save yourself from the big numbers. You may think that the numbers will buy your arguement credibility it doesn't. It just make you look like you are trying to talk over someone. Keep things in laymans terms. Its more digestible that way and doesn't make you look like an ass.(that was not meant as an inflamatory remark.Think about it)
Einstein said,"If you can't explain your idea to an eight year old then you don't know what you are talking about."
Einstein said,"If you can't explain your idea to an eight year old then you don't know what you are talking about."
Do you like apples? Well, how do you like [b]THEM APPLES[/b]
Is it okay for me, as a practicing Christian to say this:
"I really don't know exactly what happened (evolution or creation) and I'm okay with that."
We see evolution all around us. To deny that it exists is silly. Macro vs. Micro... we could go a bit fuzzier.
My belief system does not need an answer, it just needs a question. Science asks questions. Religion seems to have found all the answers and doesn't Change. Folks say that God is unchanging, but i see in scripture a God who constantly changes, who grows. If we are created in his "image" and we grow and mature, then so must he. I find more faith in God through the questing of Science than I do in the dogma of religious zealotry.
Don't stop asking questions. that is faith for me.
simple, yes
simple-minded, i sure hope not, but fully acknowledge that is a possibility.
in times of spiritual connection, i find it impossible to deny.
To be honest, i feel that Christians who argue this point and resort to law suits, name calling, and bad science, are sometimes missing the point of Christianity all together.
"I really don't know exactly what happened (evolution or creation) and I'm okay with that."
We see evolution all around us. To deny that it exists is silly. Macro vs. Micro... we could go a bit fuzzier.
My belief system does not need an answer, it just needs a question. Science asks questions. Religion seems to have found all the answers and doesn't Change. Folks say that God is unchanging, but i see in scripture a God who constantly changes, who grows. If we are created in his "image" and we grow and mature, then so must he. I find more faith in God through the questing of Science than I do in the dogma of religious zealotry.
Don't stop asking questions. that is faith for me.
simple, yes
simple-minded, i sure hope not, but fully acknowledge that is a possibility.
in times of spiritual connection, i find it impossible to deny.
To be honest, i feel that Christians who argue this point and resort to law suits, name calling, and bad science, are sometimes missing the point of Christianity all together.
[size=75]i may be weak, but i have bad technique[/size]