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Brentucky wrote:kafish, the vast majority of people in the gym I climb at can't climb V5, so there....

as you have stated they can push beyond this... this is a lack of determination or a failure on their traning routine or both.

Brentucky wrote:Once again though you are pretty much calling 5.14 "average" if you are saying that most everyone can do it. If your experience tells you that it is average (50% of people you know can do it) then you don't know very many people.

I did not say that 5.14 was average. I simply stated the average person should be able to climb this grade. There is a difference there. The difference being that while we are for the most part capable of climbing this grade most of us will not. This is not because of a genetic limiting factor. It is because of lack of determination, prioritizing other aspects of our lives, lack of proper training, lack of adequate opportunity to climb outside. There are a lot of reasons people are not climbing the 5.14 grade. My guess is the number one factor is a lack of belief in oneself, or the mindset to push our bodies hard enough. Next time you are at the gym ask yourself if you have pushed yourself as hard a Patxi or a Romonette, my guess is it is a no. Don't worry I don't either, but that is not a genetic defect that is a active decision I make that says that amount of suffering is not worth the pay off. Let's not kid ourselves, if we aren't progressing it is because we are lazy.

Brentucky wrote:At some point physics takes over. Force and friction won't combine in even theoretically possible combinations to be enough to make something actually "harder," but it will become harder just by stacking lots and lots of hard shit together. It will become extremely body size to climb size dependent, and it will probably have to be fabricated in a gym.

That may look be the case some day but I think we are still seeing grades being pushed at a similar rate as future grades were pushed. My guess is that this shows we have not reached this point where physics takes over. If in ten years time we are still looking at 15b being the peak of climbing achievement I guess I will have some egg on my face.

We have all had the experience of getting on something that felt impossible and in the course of a day; it goes. Over the long haul an individual can progress with the right attitude, and program. I see some friends of mine making these strides.

We are domesticated humans-- domesticated primates, we are the pets of our own society. The wild state however lurks just beneath the surface. Under the right pressure adaption comes quick.
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I consider the question 'Can Everyone Climb 5.14?' similar to the question 'Can Everyone live their daily lives at a healthy weight?' The answer is no. However, it is certainly possible for many people who think that it is impossible. Do you realize that there are people locked in a lethal struggle with obesity. They think that just getting to live at a healthy weight is equivalent to 5.14.
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From another perspective the question boils down to 'can everyone be the best' or 'can everyone make the Olympic Team.' That is basically how many of you have translated the question. The answer is of course not. Genetics must play here or we can just defenestrate biological evolution completely.
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My answer to 'Can Everyone Climb 5.14?': No, but many can who think they can't.
My answer to 'Can Everyone Climb 5.14?': No, but Brentucky, Onefall, Piglet, Kafish, heavyc, shamis, JR, andrew, and SCIN can. Caribe will try. Climb2core is hopeless.
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caribe wrote:My answer to 'Can Everyone Climb 5.14?': No, but many can who think they can't.
My answer to 'Can Everyone Climb 5.14?': No, but Brentucky, Onefall, Piglet, Kafish, heavyc, shamis, JR, andrew, and SCIN can. Caribe will try. Climb2core is hopeless.
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Ha Ha. Peeked at your spray list. A fall filled with 5.8 to 5.10... Maybe time to rethink that trad thing if you want to try to climb 5.14? Ask Kafish2 how that worked for him.

Yeah . . . this really isn't personal Pillsbury Weenie Boy. It is just a flat fact that there is no way you will ever climb 5.14 I mean 5.13.

caribe wrote:Yeah . . . this really isn't personal Pillsbury Weenie Boy. It is just a flat fact that there is no way you will ever climb 5.14 I mean 5.13.

I decided I am keeping that Avatar until I DO send 5.13. I will have to remember that pic Krampus just put up on the thread where you just called out a guy for not climbing because he lost his family. oops.

I think 5.15+/ 5.16 will be all about endurance. People really aren't moves harder than v14...and i suspect the new harder grades will just be multiple v12-v14 moves stacked on top if each other.

toad857 wrote:Seriously, though, this thread is dumb. No need to dissect such an arbitrary topic.

Can anyone here climb 5.14? 5.15? No? Okay then.

It's only dumb because the answer is easy. If it had been asked if everyone could climb 5.13 then it would be dumb in a different way, but the answer would be harder. Arbitrary topics where everyone thinks they are right are fun. Go interact with your work folk if you don't like the dumbness.

Quote
I did not say that 5.14 was average. I simply stated the average person should be able to climb this grade. There is a difference there. The difference being that while we are for the most part capable of climbing this grade most of us will not. This is not because of a genetic limiting factor. It is because of lack of determination, prioritizing other aspects of our lives, lack of proper training, lack of adequate opportunity to climb outside. There are a lot of reasons people are not climbing the 5.14 grade. My guess is the number one factor is a lack of belief in oneself, or the mindset to push our bodies hard enough. Next time you are at the gym ask yourself if you have pushed yourself as hard a Patxi or a Romonette, my guess is it is a no. Don't worry I don't either, but that is not a genetic defect that is a active decision I make that says that amount of suffering is not worth the pay off. Let's not kid ourselves, if we aren't progressing it is because we are lazy.
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If I pushed myself as hard as Paxti or Ramonette my elbows would explode and the connective tissue shrapnel would take out several innocent bystanders. The tragedy would close whatever gym was unlucky enough for me to be attending. I would guess that most people would be injured if they tried to emulate those training programs.

Not everyone can climb a 5.14. I think I will eventually, although keeping overuse injuries at bay will probably be the crux.

Shamis wrote:I think 5.15+/ 5.16 will be all about endurance. People really aren't moves harder than v14...and i suspect the new harder grades will just be multiple v12-v14 moves stacked on top if each other.

That's funny, because I think it was back in the early 1990s that Todd Skinner stated that there was no such thing as a single move harder than .13b, or something to that effect.

Also, kafish, I appreciate your Reaganesque assertion that people who are not climbing 5.14 are simply not training hard enough (the poor are just lazy! RonPaul4lyfe! AynRandmakesMy Peepee hard!), but you are completely glossing over the fact that, as climbers training in gyms start pushing their personal limits, the possibility of career-ending injuries becomes more and more likely. Granted, this is probably less likely at a place like the Red, where endurance counts for more than single strenuous moves, but climbing is still a very strenuous sport, it's easy to overtrain, and the body of scientific knowledge on effective training and injury prevention is pretty slim compared to other sports.

One-Fall asked me to respond to his question on here, and after reading all the responses, I realized how hard the question really is... or how easy it is... not sure which.

In short, No. Not everyone can. Of course there will be extreme examples that will always lead to a "no" answer when asked if "Everyone" can do pretty much anything.

Not taking the question absolutely literal, then I have to say Yes. Nearly every person of average ability could potentially climb a 5.14 someday, if they so desired. Most won't desire enough to put in the necessary work. Most won't make the choices that may be necessary to give up the parts of their lives that might get in the way. Is that ok? Sure. It's all a personal choice.

I almost just want to quote kafish, because he's said most of what I would say.

In a perfect world, a climbing vacuum, the average 5.10 climber would need only a few things to reach 5.14 in just a few years...

Environment. It helps to have a motivated crew, especially with partners who are stronger than you.
Attitude. If you have the crew, you're halfway there. The "I can do it" attitude is contagious, and without it, you're a goner.
Lack of Ego. You're going to get stomped sometimes. If that stops you, might as well go home. Consistently working on weaknesses is hard on an ego.
Time. Again, this is a perfect world. That doesn't mean that the average climber can't do it on 6 hours a week... they can, and do.
Training. You can't train like the next guy. You have to do what's best for you. Work on your weaknesses, learn new things, always evolve.