Community Meeting - Nov 9th

[Clevis Hitch]

well, it was a hoot. I think there was a consensus drawn. I took away several things from the meeting. Most people I agree with, at least the ones that showed up to the meeting. There were a couple of glassy-eyed types but they didn't rule the day. We came to a vote and pretty much the status quo rules the day. I have a shit load of video from the meeting. The audio is probably better than my videography. If any one is interested in seeing it I think I can send it.

[Shannon]

Thanks to everyone (seventeen in person and one call in) who took the time to attend the meeting tonight. Special thanks to Josephine for taking copious meeting notes that will be made available to anyone interested.

The general feeling was the meeting, and what came out of it, was a good step in the right direction. It was agreed that everything discussed will be shared and widely distributed for further input and comments. All present agreed that:
1. this meeting was by no means the final resolution or
2. that the people who attended represented all views and
3. any consensus is general consensus (as opposed to perfect agreement) and
4. there can only be voluntary compliance.

Three possibilities on how to handle perma draws emerged from the discussion:
1. No perma draws, project draws, or cleaning draws
2. We can have a method for having some draws on some routes for cleaning
3. We can leave the fixing, use and maintenance of draws the way it’s been

The group’s preferred position was to encourage the highest standard of personal responsibility and generally discourage the practice of leaving draws on any route. Until I can (with others help) come up with better language, the draft version was: All perma draws are subject to removal (at the discretion of subsequent climbers attempting the route or others). Community tolerated “left” gear may occur in some circumstances, to be determined later. As was pointed out this may simply be stating the obvious, any draws left may be taken down. However, with the dramatic spike in the number of visiting climbers and the realization of what may have been accepted behavior (perma draws) in the past with fewer climbers, there are now unintended consequences and new challenges that may call for a stronger reaffirmation of, and return to, this truism.

There is clearly much that went into these few cryptic statements. Unfortunately I will be out tomorrow (climbing) so I will not be able to give a complete summary until Friday.

Thanks again,
Shannon

[pigsteak]

Thanks to Shannon for moderating and giving us a meeting space.

Thanks to everyone who showed up to voice their opinions. And to those who drove in from Miggie's during the week to participate.

An observation: before the meeting, i would have told you that a large majority of climbers were "against" the action of the few who pulled the draws. I expected to see more opposition to the act, but outside of Todd and Erica speaking up, there was not nearly as much dissent as I expected. In fact, I would go as far as saying most at the meeting agreed that fixed draws had become a problem that needed to be addressed. While I personally want to see less gear left hanging, I was hoping more folks would share their reasons "for" leaving the situation as is with draws everywhere.

So either most do not care one way or the other on the issue, couldn't make the meeting, or are too timid to voice their true feelings. If you have an opinion either way, please participate. Like Cletus said last night, if you didn't vote back in the day then you really couldn't rail against George Bush. Don't be silent and then bemoan what may be coming down the pike.

[kneebar]

I would have liked to attend the meeting, a weekend would be better for me and anybody driving much of a distance. Working and living 4 hours away makes it tough during the week. I am surprised more climbers didn't show up to voice there opinion. But thanks for getting something put together Shannon.

I would hope whatever gets decided it is fair accross the grade and clear cut, gray areas make it tough for everyone.

[climb2core]

Pig, Maybe I am misunderstanding... I don't think the meeting was to debate whether or not you agreed with the actions of the crew, but rather to begin to form a forward going ethics on fixed gear in the Red. From the brief comments so far it sounds as if the attitude is tending toward "leave it as is". I am against that mindset and think that there are realistic and feasible options for better managing fixed gear in the Red (as previously stated in this thread).

[pigsteak]

Ian: I think that it is leaning towards a reminder to the community: any gear left on a route over night (PD's, project draws, aluminum tat) may not be there when you come back the next day or next week. Assume that when you leave a draw, it will be gone. Consensus may form around certain routes being fixed, but do not get upset if the steel draws you bought are suddenly gone. As well, just because you hang your draws for a project (whether it be a week or two months) you can not expect others to want to climb on your gear, so they have the right to remove it when they want to climb the route.

Also, I think there was some talk of what do do with stripped draws, and leaving them at miguel's was not the answer. I heard leave them on the anchors, and others said leave them laying at the base of the climb to be retrieved.

Also seemed many were OK with steel biners at the chains as well as perhaps a cleaning draw in certain "safety" situations.

But you are correct. It was not to rehash the events leading up to the meeting.

[climb2core]

So help me, as a member of the community, understand how I should act upon this reminder... Make an effort to pull project draws all the time? Only if they appear mank? Leave at the climb or take as booty? Then what about PDs? Do they go back up on the undertow wall? Is it ok for the crew or me to take them down? Do we have any plan for documenting routes with PDs? I am not directing at you Kipp, but rather the consensus of how to handle it. IMHO, this plan of a "strong reminder" that left draws are fair game for abandoned is an ambiguous response and will quickly become a forgotten moment in the history of the Red.

[vertical1]

I think I am going to stick clip my way up some really hard routes and clean a few draws. Just to keep the crew honest, you know.

[dustonian]

I would hope whatever gets decided it is fair accross the grade and clear cut, gray areas make it tough for everyone.

impossible... the entire issue is a grey area.

remember this guy?: http://www.mountainproject.com/v/genera ... /106998197

in the RED he would now just be another member of the CREW

[vertical1]

Speaking of grey area, I think someone has project draws on Nagypapa. It is clearly not too steep to clean.