The crowds are not going away... So what do we do?

[kneebar]

The boom in the red is like cities building suburbs and malls. We don't think about the infrastructure before we build the cities (miggies) or the malls (crags). Unless we bulldoz the entire project we are going to go on doing painful temporary patches.

I really don't know of any area that has stopped the developer from putting up a bunch of routes because of parking and trails, it's one of those things that you try to work out after the fact. Or miggies limiting camping or delicious pies, seriously could Dario buy a sweet piece of property if it wasn't for the hoard? Which I think by the way is awesome!

It would be hard for me to ask climbers not to come to the wonderful red. Not when I come here myself to climb and youall are part of the problem too.

So many of you have spent a lot of time, money and effort into creating this monster, now you want to put it on a super lean diet. If you want to make it fair everybody gets a 2 week pass to climb in the red then go somewhere else! Or you can get extra days by volunteering with time or money. So go look in mirror and ask yourself how many volunteer days you have spent compared to the days you have climbed. So what is a good number for that? It usually comes down to having cash (you have a job) or you are a dirtbag and have no money so you have the time. Everybody can contribute to making it a better place to handle the crowds. If you don't have time or money, perhaps you need a different hobby other then climbing.

I don't agree with raising prices to make it tough on visitors, it's part of the beauty of the place. Obviously creating more climbing areas hasn't done much in the long run. When Muir opened it took a bit of load off of the southern region, but now there is just that many more climbers. We all have created this monster.......we'll most off it is pigs fault, he keeps putting up sweet climbs..

[rhunt]

I strongly disagree with notion that we need to develop/buy more cliff line to accommodate the growing number of climbers. Eventually even the non locals will start to dislike the over crowded cliffs and seek out different area to climb at. If we keep developing new cliff line as a way to accommodate the crowds we are just creating more crowds. The more cliff we develop the more climber will come. I think we need a moratorium on developing new cliff and first concentrate on getting the secrete crags opened then come up with a management plan to deal with the over crowding.

[clif]

I strongly disagree with notion that we need to develop/buy more cliff line to accommodate the growing number of climbers. Eventually even the non locals will start to dislike the over crowded cliffs and seek out different area to climb at. If we keep developing new cliff line as a way to accommodate the crowds we are just creating more crowds. The more cliff we develop the more climber will come. I think we need a moratorium on developing new cliff and first concentrate on getting the secrete crags opened then come up with a management plan to deal with the over crowding.

this doesn't make any sense to me. by definition, yes, a 'management plan' would deal with the overcrowding, and it is a nice idea, completely lacking specifics.

but to say that the crowds are created by more routes being developed is bassackwards. climbs don't create climbers.

i think it makes sense to open 'secret' crags, i just suspect that they are secret either because there are ownership issues or the developers want to avoid the crowds (which, did not seem born out by the first few weeks this fall when people reported nearly empty popular crags)..

[clif]

ok, this'll probably get me shot. btw, i have no idea where area6 is.

but, if you take cave fork road for about a mile, the second right coming off of Ashland camp/cr-1069, the east side of that spur road (unnamed) is lined with crags. i say the rrgcc/access fund buys it. well, after somebody goes to see if it's solid.

additionally for you google earth/map fans, the rough rectangle described by the corners of cr1377 (cave hollow road off 1038) as the upper left corner, cr1341 new virginia ridge road as the lower left corner and fixer as the right boundary looks to be a wonderful place to get lost, if you have a rope.

[pigsteak]

clif, do the research...much is oil land, another section WMA....

[clif]

interesting, i did a little, thanks.

a few thoughts..

the ash(-land?) WMA mentions deer and turkey as the key species, which both have limited hunting seasons. is exploring a year round schedule with climbing a possibility the Kentucky Rec. Dept. would consider (if the rock is worth the access hurdle)?

the other quadrant is large and i couldn't see any access roads, moreover, hasn't it been demonstrated that climbing and oil extraction can coexist?

[pigsteak]

WMA allows no climbing.

[caribe]

WMA allows no climbing.

Wilderness management area? State land; county land?

[dustonian]

State. I recommend writing your elected state representative. Unfortunately, he is a ruthless teabagger... so watch your scrot'.

[tutugirl]

The Red has become one of the destinations for many climbers from all parts of the world. Back in 1992 only a few climbers visited the Red and Miguel's was busy when there were 15 tents in the back. Most of the growth comes from the sport itself. climbers of all ages and backgrounds. This particular year we had great weather every weekend which it is well deserved after a bad Winter and Spring. Rocktoberfest attracted a huge crowd this year...I think the biggest so far according to their post. We invited them in to participate and to give money so we can have secured climbing areas. Areas like Roadside were closed...and a few over the years...part of Military, Pocket Wall, The Arena, Oil crag....it would be nice to have those areas open to disperse climbers around but I am sure there are new areas soon to be open which are on the process of development. This past Spring we went during the week to Muir and our car was the only one there...and at the cliff, we were the only ones all day long in a beautiful sunny day....days that that reminds me that yes, it is crowded but soon the crowds will leave and the place will go back to the normal flow of the locals...in the process we got to meet and talk to people from all different parts of the world, made new friends and saw old ones...got to share our little heaven with them. Complaining about the crowds reminds me of people that go to church complaining about the sinners in church....after all we are all sinners...