RRC Archives

shear wrote:I never see anyone belaying using the Petzl technique, ever...and I doubt any of the people here who are so quick to crucify the belayer use it either.

I just want to chime in and say that I also use the Petzl-approved method, and ONLY the Petzl-approved method. I have used it since the day Petzl made their long overdue press release. (I thought it was crazy that they didn't have an approved method for lead belaying for the first 5 or 10 years that the GriGri was on the market!) It's a little awkward at first, but really, what isn't? It works. It's not that hard. You can give a smooth belay, and your climbing partners will love you for it. Practice it, and you can be a safer belayer.

As bad as this was, I'm glad this situation didn't turn out any worse...

caribe wrote:

michaelarmand wrote:

caribe wrote: • Mike if you use the grigri like can ATC (never take your hand off the brake) how is switching from the gri to the ATC going to increase your climber's safety?

Not by much but there are a few things a gri-gri can do because it is brake assisted.

I hope you realized that I was arguing AGAINST ditching the grigri.

I see. I'm not actually going back to the ATC, even if some here ridicule my "improper" use of the device. I watched the video and looked closely at the Petzl instructions. The "new" recommended method of feeding out clipping slack works, I tried it out at the gym. But it really isn't much of a safety impreovement in my opinion. You still hold the cam down with your thumb while the rope runs between your hand and the device. It may look like you have your brake hand on the rope - but you really don't. The same "death grip" problem can occur with this new method.

fuck, i'm old.

is making a loop of rope while intending to 'feed' quick slack to a lead clipping really a technique?

i don't know.
seems like a lot of effort.

as the idea has not been submitted to scrutiny, does the best of the grigri=atc+auto locking cam+right sized rope+?? ? .?

...oh, right, i was going to say how (i think) grigri's suck. i spent 75 dollars on one. still use it, some. also never but less than a 10.5mm.

just to throw out a different idea: the climber can help establish an atmosphere of attention and focus.

michaelarmand wrote:You still hold the cam down with your thumb while the rope runs between your hand and the device. It may look like you have your brake hand on the rope - but you really don't. The same "death grip" problem can occur with this new method.

When I use this method, I am pinching the device with my index finger and thumb. I still have 3 "braking" fingers wrapped around the rope while feeding out slack. One session of practicing is a step in the right direction, but maybe another few times practicing will yield a better result...

I use a Trango Cinch and ONLY EVER use the method shown in Malcolm Daly's video on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9TO5ikqXwo

On the (rare) occasions I've ever seen other people using a cinch, I have more than once seen them prying/holding the silver plate open with their thumb to pay out slack. I envision this method similar to what people are doing when they pry a grigri open as described in the scenario that is the subject of this thread. In either method, there is no hand on the brake end. And yes, whenever I see people doing that with a cinch, I tell them how to do it the right way. It's still easy, pays out rope quickly, and always keeps your hand on the brake end.

With that said, I still recognize that no belay device - especially in the hands of a human being - is foolproof. Not to harp on another sore subject, but it's my understanding that the accident this March happened with the belayer using a Cinch. Since that time, I have been immensely curious - and somewhat freaked out - as to the mechanics of that accident vis a viz the Cinch. My curiosity is based on the safety of myself and those I climb with; I have been hoping that some details about that accident would be made public so I can learn from the incident. I would hope the same thing would be done if such an accident were to happen to me. If anyone has info they can share publicly or PM me, I would appreciate that.

As for the present accident, my condolences to the dog, climber, and belayer. Once the dust settles, I encourage the climber and belayer to submit a report of the accident to ANAM. I read that publication cover to cover and suggest everyone else do the same. There are plenty of other instances of climbers submitting their own accidents to ANAM. I know it can be tough to put aside pride/embarrassment, but you really can do the community a great service by telling the true details of your accident and how to learn from it.

jimmy wrote:

michaelarmand wrote:When I use this method, I am pinching the device with my index finger and thumb. I still have 3 "braking" fingers wrapped around the rope while feeding out slack.

Exactly. I use my thumb, index and middle to hold the cam, leaving two fingers loosely wrapped around the rope. Even with an ATC, the belayer will have moments where the rope slides through their brake hand, either when feeding out rope, taking in rope, whatever. The point is not to always have the brake end in a death grip, but to have the ability to do so at a moment's notice. If I was feeding slack for a clip and all of a sudden my climber pumped out and took a whip, I'd be able to quickly let go of the cam and grip the rope tightly, allowing the cam to engage.

Experience is the best teacher, so people who are not used to catching surprise falls with the grigri may succumb to accidentally holding the cam down when they go into "panic" mode. I think many people who teach climbers, whether with the ATC or grigri, need to stress the importance of preparing to lock off the brake strand at all times, and not just as soon as an *obvious* fall happens. I see people with ATCs who will hold the two strands parallel as they feed and take in rope. Only when they see the climber exit the wall will they move to the braking position, and it drives me crazy that they don't see their error--that they don't see how potentially deadly that can be. Same with people who use a grigri incorrectly. I like to think that by going over there and telling them their method is wrong that it would make them change, but part of me thinks that if they don't see it themselves already, why would they believe me?

DHB wrote: I see people with ATCs who will hold the two strands parallel as they feed and take in rope. Only when they see the climber exit the wall will they move to the braking position, and it drives me crazy that they don't see their error--that they don't see how potentially deadly that can be. Same with people who use a grigri incorrectly.

God, I HATE it when people belay like that... it is so obvious that they were either never taught or else taught by some clueless gym lackey and have just gotten away with shitty technique so far by sheer dumb luck!!

On the Petzl-approved belay method front, I have actually been to more than one climbing gym now (when rigging on tour you end up in a lot of different climbing gyms unfortunately) where they will fail you on your lead belay test if you pay out slack with your brake hand off. I've actually found I can pay out slack on a grig by pinching with my pinky, ring finger and palm, and letting the rope run through by middle, index finger, and thumb... but this takes big hands.

All that said, if you've got the cam clamped down hard with ANY grigri belay method and the climber falls, they are still going to hit the deck regardless of how you hold the damn thing.

pigsteak wrote:the Gri? sounds like the cool kids club again:)

Hmmm ... this record keeps skipping. Must be old and ready to toss.

toad857 wrote:
I think you may have misinterpreted what he was describing... From how I took it, I think he meant that the belayer would allow some extra rope (thus, extra fall time) to buffer the fall against a static catch. A static catch would sling a climber directly into the wall, breaking ankles. And, yes, I agree with you that anchoring into the floor while lead belaying is typically unwise. I've never seen a gym enforce something like that, though.

Sorry if it wasn't clear. Toad857 interpreted my ramblings correctly, the belayer has provided some slack in order to prevent the slingshot effect into the wall. If the climber falls, the belayer either takes a step forward or does the jump thus providing the soft catch. After the catch, they then lower the climber down if they don't want to get back on the wall.

It can look as if it's one motion because the belayer provides the soft catch and then starts to lower almost instantaneously.

What I'm referring to is that for the inexperienced lead belayer who observes this, they may see it as starting to feed the rope during the fall. Couple that with their instinctive reaction to step BACK and not towards the climber, all sorts of possibilities exist. That's the problem!

At the gym that I climb, there are no anchors in the floor.

The bottom line that I'm trying to convey is that with all the new "participants" in this "activity", trying to imitate those around them without understanding what it is they're doing or why can certainly lead to a bad situation.

Meadows wrote:Hmmm ... this record keeps skipping. Must be old and ready to toss.

This phenomenon is not exclusive to the ham.