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First off caribe, your entire post is worthless and completely irresponsible. No one, and I mean NO ONE, should ever make a comment about Ewoks fighting then post a link that does not actually contain Ewoks fighting. There may be merit to the rest of the post but it doesn't even matter now.

People accuse me of making esoteric cultural references so I was just making sure that everyone knew what an Ewok was.

People haven't had to deal with this problem for 20 years. Where else do you know of a climber owned and operated preserve like Muir Valley? You don't. So stop talkin out of your ass. Private land is not public land.

um...the lode has been private since development started in 1993...and the madness cave was bolted in 1994... so, 2008 - 1994 = 14 years... so, for 14 years climbers have been "self policing" the equipment on private land. no draws have failed in the madness cave. same goes for the GMC wall, etc.

here's a bit o' history -- porter put draws on the anchors of snooker when the route went up. That route gets worked... the draws were bleached, the biners worn, etc. Lurk took the draws down, replaced them, and sent each off for testing -- one went to U of L w/ Maurine (bad ass climber chic and engineering student at the time) and one went to Black Diamond to Nick Rueff -- both were tested and failed at rates well beyond what a climber's falllwould rate... additionally, Russ Clune has taken our hardware to the BD lab and has confirmed that the gear fails at a level well beyond that of what a climber's fall can do to it -- and this is old (5-7 yr old) gear from the lode... thus, the community has policed itself -- to extremes -- by taking gear to be tested, etc.

When things need to be replaced at the lode, someone does it. Nobody asks for it to be done, it just gets done when it is noted that something is sketchy... this is community policing.

What it doesn't account for is that my definition of "sketchy" or "unsafe" may be different from yours... so, the crux of the current matter is that Rick's perception of "safe" differs from that of some of the others here. Rick also has credentials that back up what he says/he's done his own testing... so, given that it is his land, we should follow his lead. If worn gear is an issue, then I suggest that you just sack up and hang your project draws when you get on the route in the a.m. and take them down when you're done working it for the day. Ya, it goes against our more lazy sport climbin' ways, but it isn't that much to ask.

I can't believe I even wrote this/got involved... I should know better... oh well...

Those esoteric cultural references usually the we complain about usually involve 4th century Guatemala, or some random fad from the 70's in Oklahoma. If you don't know what an Ewok is, then you are too young to climb For the reference, 15 minutes and no pictures of Ewoks in a cage match to be found, gives me a holloween idea.

close enough, continue arguing.

LOL me too Charlie. I am glad nothing has changed. Its nice to know I can always come back to redriverclimbing anytime to get my drama fill.

carry on...

this thread has served its early week purpose. Let it die....

I'll address this first part to Rick.

Rick, I apologize if I came across as an ungrateful jerk. I do have the greatest respect and admiration for the tremendous efforts you and Liz have put in to developing and maintaining Muir. Just recently we were marvelling at the stairs going up to one of the walls. The signs are super helpful too as I tend to get disoriented a little in such a vast area. The roads and the parking,etc. are super nice. I want you to know I truly appreciate what you have done and what you continue to do for the sake of all of us who enjoy climbing at Muir.

I completely agree that as the landowner you have every right to run things as you please and futhermore you shouldn't have to justify every decision. You have enough to deal with. I'm still kind of new to Muir and learning how things are. I didn't understand your emphasis and your approach as I still tend to think in terms of other areas I've climbed in for years where safety is maintained more informally through word of mouth and peer pressure . You prefer a more top down approach. So be it.

Evidently, you've had difficulty getting people to honor your requests regarding fixed draws and felt the need, as a last resort, to threaten removing hangers to force action. It seems that people are already taking action on the quickdraw front, so your threat had the desired effect, or maybe they would have gotten after it any way, I don't know. I inserted myself at that point questioning the move as it seemed excessive. It seems that I was only adding to your frustration. I regret that and I'm sorry if I pissed you off, truly.

I want to be clear to everbody. I've never broken rules at Muir Valley and I don't advocate breaking rules. I was merely questioning Webers tactic and I did it in a tactless way (no, I'm not tactless). I guess I'm just used to and comfortable with the old way of doing things, as poser suggested. If I can help out with the routes in question, I'll be happy to even though they're too hard for me to climb. Hope to see some of you out at the crag soon.

Neal