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I agree with the no dogs. We have three and none of them go climbing. Most dogs (including ours, which is why I don't bring them) are not well trained enough to not bark at other dogs, trample over babies, toddlers, or gear, etc. Profanity and crude behavior is obviously a part of our sport but it is easy to abide by all landowners rules to keep access open.

Praise the lord! Lead and the flock will follow!

That is exactly the issue. profanity, climbing at night, dogs, peeing in the parking lot...all of these things are normal in the climbing world, because normally we are out in the middle of nowhere.

The rules and education are necessary becuase we need to express that torrent is not the motherload. there are rules and normal behavior is not allowed. normally climbing areas are not also someone's house. the only example of this that I can think of is muir and the smoke bluffs in Squamish.

But climbers certainly know how to climb quietly and leave no trace, they do it whenever they are climbing somewhere illegally or with sketchy access. So it can be done.

One post on this topic suggested, "If the climbing community had known their rules, expectations, and/or current frustrations, then ..."

While I liked that post overall, and agree that the climbing community as a whole will respond well, I think it shows a need to emphasize the nature of Mark Meyer's original submission.

The thrust of Mark Meyer's posting was that he and his family's "rules, expectations and current frustration" should be [i]obvious[/i] to anyone with basic courtesy and common sense. I happen to agree--nothing he has requested seems to go beyond that. To those that think so, then I must smirkingly add that a real cultural divide is being exposed.

--Steve Rudy
Dublin, Ohio

Steve, I think some of us has said as much. It is different in todays' world. I hold doors open for people and more often than not they never say "thank you". I however, and always in a voice loud enough for them to hear, say "you're welcome". Sometimes this so confuses them that their brain goes into a feedback loop and their head explodes! This really does happen a lot!

Sunshine, You're right--I should have read all the postings before I submitted mine.

--Steve

Since that was my post, I'll respond...

First off...
Hi Steve, welcome to the board.

You are correct in everything you said. What Mark is asking for is common sense.

Merrick explained my point well:

The rules and education are necessary becuase we need to express that torrent is not the motherload. there are rules and normal behavior is not allowed. normally climbing areas are not also someone's house. the only example of this that I can think of is muir and the smoke bluffs in Squamish.

I've climbed at Torrent a ton and never knew Mark was having such issues with profanity, people leaving their cars, chairs being moved, etc. Granted, I don't do that stuff but if I had known their frustrations I would've been more proactive in informing others and would've tried to do something to keep us from getting to this point.

What may seem obvious to those that know Torrent is privately owned may not necessarily be obvious to those that don't. In most other places at the RRG, all the things that are driving the Meyers' crazy are permissible. I'm not intending to justify anyone's actions, I'm just trying to make sense of all this in order to solve the problem.

I don't think anyone would intentionally do something to shut down Torrent. Am I just totally naive in thinking this way?

No Artsay, I for one don't think you are totally naive. I think you simply give some undeserving people to much credit. I have seen no positive changes in user behavior (crag behavior), since I started climbing 11 years ago. In fact, it has gotten worse. But maybe I have blinders on. After all, each of us sees things from our own "mindset". I see a lot of dog shit!

I think it is very hard for people who are of a certain mindset (intelligent and/or have manners and/or common sense) to think like someone who isn't. It is just so hard to comprehend how some people think the way they do. What we have to do is find the best way to reach the people who don't think. I think everyone is on the right track with their ideas and things will improve at Torrent. However, I think this is an example of how we are not doing that good of a job policing ourselves. I think everyone who sees anything going on that is improper in a certain area should go up to the offenders and make sure they understand that what they are doing puts climbing at risk. I think anyone who sees something that needs to be corrected and doesn't speak up is part of the problem. If everyone turns their backs, nothing will get better. Even the biggest dunce in the world will behave if he is getting hassled by everyone around him every time he ropes up.

I agree with what everyone has been saying. I love my dog. I feel that she is well-trained. But there's no reason for her to be at Torrent. It sounds like dogs are a big part of the problem. That probably means I won't be there a lot but I'm not anyway.

I too get freaked out by crowds, loud talking and raucous behavior at times. If someone came to my back door and started shouting obscenities and pissing on my yard (besides my beau), I'd definitely kick them out.

Thanks Mark for letting us climb.