Have gas prices affected your Labor Day?

[Christian]

And for the record, I believe that we should all buy diesels and convert them to running on veggie oil! Not only would this make farmers happy but we'd all drive around producing yummy smells.

I am really attracted to the bio fuel thing but I was concerned about the impact on food costs especially for the the rest of the world as well as the continued /increased problems with corporate farming(pesticides,soil leeching/salt etc.)

[charlie]

busty, for you, higher up on this page. Yeah I got this link from googling the article but I've read the same thing in all those militaristic left wing environmentalist periodicals I subscribe to as well. Does that invalidate the article?

........Hydrogen cells are a fantasy, if not for this country definitely for the rest of the world. Even if we ignore the significant technological challenges there a huge amount of necessary infrastructure that simply doesn't exist.

http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/002445.html

...... the one requiring the greatest effort will be production, if only because the less clean sources of hydrogen (that is, ones still relying on fossil fuels and producing carbon dioxide as an emission) are likely to be the cheapest in the short term. A hydrogen economy tied to non-renewable, extractive feedstocks -- e.g., coal and natural gas, the two most often cited -- is a bright green illusion at best.

Once again, what appears to be an issue of technology turns out to be instead a question of infrastructure.

[tbwilsonky]

Wow, lookit how the widdle boy can google! You can find anything on the internet to back up any opinion.

Sources are the gap between 'opinion' and 'fact' - but heaven forbid anyone support their arguments with them.

That does not make yours more well-thought-out or insightful.

Well thought out requires, again, sources, lest it be speculation. And where, o' where, does this mythical insight come? From the virginal person untouched by the heretic evil of information, or, more likely, and again, from sources?

Your arguments lack substance relying solely upon insults and an apparent belief in your intellectual superiority.

I'm pretty sure insults and my beliefs have very little to do with the substance of my arguments or your arguments. That's the great thing about arguments, they stand up on their own without the need for handshakes and hugs. Now its obviously not very effective (as shown above), but it's still terribly valid.

So, let's put down your sarcastic criticism and argue like a grown up eh?

With no support, no order, and no insight - just pure opinion, eh? That way, we can move from a) multiple unsupported opinions into b) perhaps one big unsupported opinion. Great.

It's one thing to Wes hump on someone like me who consistently jumps into the frey with both feet but it's silly to screw up an intelligent discussion by attacking someone like Busty who never asks for it.

I agree. Busty caught the end of a bad day. Sorry.


tommy

[KD]

From the virginal person untouched by the heretic evil

"virginal" hee hee You said "virginal."

[tbwilsonky]

My point in comparing travel in space to discovering new fuels is this....we have highly developed technologies in a multitude of scientific areas.

My point was that general technological development in now way presumes the development of a specific technology. Each problem is its own discrete entity and presents its own set of puzzles that may fall outside the realm of all other problems. To generate a prediction based on fourty years of scientific histories, located in a number of generally unrelatable ways (other than they are both 'science'), seems risky.

So, finally, here is my concern on the energy crisis.
Hydrogen is not fully here yet. We have serious issues with efficiency (70% with gasoline as the base) and storage (hydrogen under pressure is sketchy), not to mention the problems of generating an entirely new infrastructure and building new vehicles (both of which require energy).

Bio-diesel and Ethanol, while renewable, are also net energy losers. If you figure in the fuel used for growing (pesiticides, running irrigation pumps) the corn/sunflower/etc, the fuel used for the distillation process, and, finally, fuel used for transport, it doesn't seem so efficient (sources omitted for sake of clarity). There is also a spatial dimension - as in, I'm not sure we have enough land to support a corn-car society and a domestic food supply.

We've already tapped into most of the hydroelectric power (though this destroys riverine habitats and messes with streamflow dynamics.

Windpower and solar power, if heavily subsidized by the state, could be useful. I read a projection that Atlanta, for instance, could be a net-zero city if every building was topped with solar panels. This, however, requires energy to build.

My major concern is the lack of our ability to manuever because we're (you, me, the state, corporations) hemmed in by expensive energy. It could have serious effects on the scale at which we can work this problem as we move forward in time.

Oh, and if I googled something and cited it in my legal briefs and motions for my job, I'd get my ass laughed out of court. Google is nice, but you can't rely on it as the ultimate source on things.

There is a time and place for everything. Google is expedient in this case and a fair approximation of the 'truth' given the very serious nature of these conversations. As an attorney, I'm sure you are aware that any body of knowledge (including positive law) is only partial, such that there is never an ultimate source on anything.....

can argue like a grown-up
tommy

[pigsteak]

crankmas,

would you buy a Toyota hybrid, made in the US, with the bulk of the profits going back to Japan? Just curious. you seem so bent on loathing walmart, yet Toyota makes the best hybrid, currently.

are you a one world lover, or just love to hate your homeland?

[Zspider]

Who hates Walmart? Over 80% of the companies they buy from are in China. So being anti-Walmart could be construed as being anti-Chinese. Somebody got something against the Chinese?

ZSpider

[Spragwa]

Tommy, nice of you to apologize to Busty.

My point in cracking on google as the be all end all of research is that the sources you cite aren't always verifiable experts in the field. I believe that if we can run a diesel engine primarily off vegetable oil, then we can find a way to greatly reduce or eliminate our dependence upon gasoline through technology. But as citizens we don't require our government to use tax dollars for research technology grants into sustainable fuels. I'd prefer more of my money to go to that research then to propping up multi-national companies based in the US.

Oh and piggie, I don't go to Walmart unless I'm on the road. Honestly, if I could stand stores of that scope, I'd shop there despite my moral discomfort with the storer. But I HATE mega-stores. We have a smallish target here off Nich Road, that's as mega as I get. I prefer tiny local shops. They don't freak me out.

[Crankmas]

I just hate you

[Crankmas]

is the "best" hybrid based on sales figures, customer satisfaction surveys, independent testing, you seem bent on using terms that you neither clarify or qualify, are you incompetent in public discussion or just rather uninformed?