RRC Archives

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2005 8:21 pm**

i'm not blaming those people, nor am i marginalizing what they feel or are going through. i'm saying, according to what i consider right and wrong (not that i've figured all of that out by any means), i think that suicide is wrong and i don't respect that course of action.

you have a right to your opinion. as i do to mine. if they really don't care about the people they'll hurt by leaving then so what if i don't respect their actions? so what if what i think what they did was wrong? they don't care, right? and if you need to understand me before you can judge me, to walk a mile in my shoes, then you can't judge what i'm saying now as right or wrong and can't get upset by it.

i'm trying to tell these people that i want them around, that we need them around. this is the way i see it: i know people who have told me about their close calls in the past. thinking about not having them in the world is painful and i see how much they do today and think about that gap that would be there. then i think about the people that have gone through with it and the fact that the world has been denied the chance to know them, to be changed by them. i won't support people in a decision to commit suicide. i won't let them leave this world thinking that's just fine by me.

judging people and actions, even feelings, is not bad in and of itself. it's when you hold those judgements against those people that judgements become bad and unfair, unjust. judging is natural and is a type of built in safety system: if you see someone walking down the street and they look like they're a killer, you become more alert. some people would run. some people would want the person arrested. i say it's fine to make that initial judgement but don't deny them the chance to change that perception.. am i saying that clearly? i don't feel like i am..

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2005 8:44 pm**

I love that we're spending Fri afternoon on such a heartwarming topic.....

Paul3eb wrote:...judging people and actions, even feelings, is not bad in and of itself. it's when you hold those judgements against those people that judgements become bad and unfair, unjust. ..... i say it's fine to make that initial judgement but don't deny them the chance to change that perception.. am i saying that clearly? i don't feel like i am..

Now I get it. It's just I have trouble with splitting hairs in terms of judgement. As a matter of caution I err on the side of not judging people until I can't not judge them. I leave the judging to the fundamentalists.

I understand you think suicide is not right for you and it's prolly not right for me either. I still won't say it's wrong for everyone.

Thanks for taking my mind out of this stupid office today.

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:18 pm**

Hey, you're right it is Phryday. Where's the philters?

(see .sig)

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:38 pm**

I think a lot of the problem with this arguement is that we're looking at the situation from outside the perspective of the person involved. It's hard to see life and think like they do. I just found this while I was studying and thought it was really interesting and hopefully some other people will too.

There is something called learned helplessness.

1. The example they give is of a dog that is repeatedly shocked in such a way that it is unable to escape.

2. By classical conditioning, the animal learns that there is an association between the shock and the inability to escape.

3.Subsequently, the animal makes no attempt to escape when shocked or when faced with any new averse stimulus; instead the animal becomes holpeless and apathetic.

4. Learned helplessness in animals may be a model system for depression (often characterized by hopelessness and apathy) in humans." [BRS Behavioral Science, 3rd. ed.]

Posted: **Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:35 am**

KD wrote:
an author not mentioned yet is the late Richard Brautigan - a favorite of mine though many people have never read him - and very few ever understood him really - myself included sometimes. wrote a very good work entitled "in watermelon sugar" and the classic "A Conferedrate General from Big Sur."

I liked him, too. Ate the gun about 20 years ago. Had some kind of really stubborn venereal disease. Alcohol and drug problems too, I believe. When they found him, he was crawling with maggots.

He wrote a great blow job poem.

ZSpider

Posted: **Sat Apr 30, 2005 5:41 am**

Y'know, nobody on this board has committed suicide.

But some of us have been touched by others' suicides.

Whether it was right or wrong we cannot judge. They are dead. We must move on. But we must also keep others from doing this horrible thing.

Let me re-iterate that I do not believe end-of-life suicides are part of this discussion.

Posted: **Sat Apr 30, 2005 12:41 pm**

In Watermelon Sugar
IN WATERMELON SUGAR the deeds were done and done again as my life is done in watermelon sugar. I'll tell you about it because I am here and you are distant.
Wherever you are, we must do the best we can. It is so far to travel, and we have nothing here to travel, except watermelon sugar. I hope this works out.
I live in a shack near iDEATH. I can see iDEATH out the window. It is beautiful. I can also see it with my eyes closed and touch it. Right now it is cold and turns like something in the hand of a child. I do not know what that thing could be.
There is a delicate balance in iDEATH. It suits us.
The shack is small but pleasing and comfortable as my life and made from pine, watermelon sugar and stones as just about everything here is.
Our lives we have carefully constructed from watermelon sugar and then travelled to the length of our dreams, along roads lined with pines and stones.
I have a bed, a chair, a table and a large chest that I keep my things in. I have a lantern that burns watermelontrout oil at night.
That is something else. I'll tell you about it later. I have a gentle life.
I go to the window and look out again. The sun is shining at the long edge of a cloud. It is Tuesday and the sun is golden.
I can see piney woods and the rivers that flow from those piney woods. The rivers are cold and clear and there are trout in the rivers.
Some of the rivers are only a few inches wide.
I know a river that is half-an-inch wide. I know because I measured it and sat beside it for a whole day. It started raining in the middle of the afternoon. We call everything a river here. We're that kind of people.
I can see fields of watermelons and the rivers that flow through them. There are many bridges in the piney woods and in the fields of watermelons. There is a bridge in front of this shack.
Some of the bridges are made of wood, old and stained silver like rain, and some of the bridges are made of stone gathered from a great distance and built in the order of that distance, and some of the bridges are made of watermelon sugar. I like those bridges best.
We make a great many things out of watermelon sugar here -- I'll tell you about it -- including this book being written near iDEATH.
All this will be gone into, travelled in watermelon sugar.
- Richard Brautigan

Posted: **Sat Apr 30, 2005 3:29 pm**

Alan Evil wrote:Y'know, nobody on this board has committed suicide.

But some of us have been touched by others' suicides.

Whether it was right or wrong we cannot judge. They are dead. We must move on. But we must also keep others from doing this horrible thing.

I have had two friends that were manic/depressive that committed suicide. Both were getting help but it is a very difficult mental disease. One of these friends was part of the RRG climbing community, Steve Must. In Memorium, the UCMC renamed their scholarship in his honor -

Who Was Steve Must And Why The UCMC Named a Scholarship In His Honor:

(The following is the text of the speech given by Bob Kessler, Club Alumni and friend of Steve, on the occassion of the renaming of the OLSP to the Steve Must Memorial Scholarship at the April 21, 1999 meeting of the UCMC)

"The Outdoor Leadership Scholarship Program was begun as a cooperation between alumni and the Mountaineering Club as a financial aid source for student members seeking advanced training in outdoor activities. The hope and aim of the scholarship is that recipients will bring their new found knowledge back to the UCMC and share it with everyone.

"Steve Must, a member of the Club since the mid 1980's, learned to love rock climbing and mountaineering through his association with the Club and its members. As he advanced in his skills, Steve would gladly share the knowledge and experience he gained with others in the UCMC. Steve would eventually leave us for the siren call of the Pacific Northwest where he spent many years mountaineering, including numerous trips with Fred Beckey (a world famous and historic figure in mountaineering); even traveling to China in his quest for new places to climb mountains.

"It seemed quite fitting and natural to rename the OLSP after Steve as a commemoration to his life and experiences in the out of doors. As a friend, I consider it an honor to recognize his achievements in this way. Although his death was much too soon, his life was certainly full and varied. We who knew him where enriched by the knowing of him. Those who receive scholarship under the banner of Steve's name will forever more be enriched by him too.

"A plaque has been created to mark the name change and to list the recipients of the scholarship. I would like to now present it and read it to you all.

"It reads:

The Steve Must Memorial Scholarship
Established 1999
In memory of Steve, a beloved member of the University of Cincinnati Mountaineering Club. Both his service to the Club and his enthusiasm for mountain climbing personified the UCMC spirit of determination and adventure. This Scholarship is awarded to individuals who are pursuing advanced training and leadership skills in the many outdoor activities promoted by the Mountaineering Club.

"A duplicate of the header plate has been made and will be given to Steve's parents, Pat and Clancy Must, who arehere tonight with us.

"Thank you."

Posted: **Sat Apr 30, 2005 7:48 pm**

My point was that no one on the board right now has committed suicide. Just a roundabout way of pointing out that there is no way for us to know what was in their heads and nobody is around to tell us.

This American Life had an excellent piece on suicide: episode 234 http://www.thislife.org/ Search for 234 and it will come right up.

Act One. How to Write a Note. This story wasn't originally made to broadcast on a radio show. It's a tape made by a guy named Jake Warga, who'd never put anything together for radio. He made it to give to his friend Brian, who wanted to kill himself. After Brian tried to overdose, Jake took him out to a park bench to talk, and brought along a recorder. Later, Jake decided to edit the conversation down and give it to Brian as a gift, hoping that if Brian heard what he was saying, if he heard how he sounded, it might stop him from trying again. To learn how to edit and mix the audio, Jake visited the website Transom.org, where his story first appeared. (24 minutes)

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