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this thread is setting a speed record. it's expanding faster than a supernova.

considering that nobody's come forward to explain why they took the draws, that's incredible.

(or maybe they have. i'll never read through all this drivel to know for sure!)

I should have known the masses of people hiding on the internet would have all sorts of uneducated and ridiculous comments to make. Never being on this website, i only skimmed through the five pages of mostly bullshit because a friend informed me this morning that me and others were referred to as "nazis" (really?). Furthermore, i wont be bothering to read any comments you have to make on the internet regarding the reasons for removing perma-draws, or any other topic. Which is due to the fact that i dont care to have childish, anonymous arguments on the internet. If you have things to say or more, my name is Zac Sands and i am not hard to find if your climbing in the Red.
I fully understand everyone's "what gives you the right" attitude. The CREW of people who stripped those draws (myself included), have no legal or god given "right" to do so. However, anyone else equally has NO right to leave draws... No perma-draws ruins your send or takes you more time?? Well maybe perma-draws ruins my onsight and takes me more time because i have inspect old ratty gear while trying to enjoy a beautiful piece of stone. I will make the statement here and now for everyone involved that the reasoning behind the stripping was not to ruin anyone's climbing day or to hurt there fragile ego when they psychically cant send something with the amazing extra effort it takes to hang and then clip a quickdraw. So, thanks for taking the time during your busy day at the office to read this far, and here is the main reasons. The red in general, some crags more in particular, have become whored out and have turned into everyone's outdoor climbing gym, with ZERO regard to crag and climbing etiquette as well as ethics in particular. This attitude of being able to access and abuse a crag and a route without the ability to even summit/make it to the anchors is totally unnecessary. The MASSES of people who come to lode and other crags with no respect and no knowledge has become simply too much. If you want to climb a route, take responsibility for yourself and realize any consequences. Basically saying... if you cant hang the draws and at least make it to the anchors... you shouldnt be on that route. The general mentality in the Red has evolved into "the worlds biggest climbing gym", where because you payed your $10 to the RRGCC.. you can act how wish, abuse what you want, park where you please, and climb any route because everything is fixed with gear. So why not perma-top ropes, or perma-auto belays, or tape the holds, god forbid you climb something in a good style that you can do in a reasonable amount of effort and time. My point is not coming from the stand point of an elitist asshole, well lets be honest, it is just a little bit. Nevertheless, the "stripping" and others actions that will be taken have the sole purpose of preserving the integrity and ethics of climbing in the Red River Gorge that have been rapidly disappearing. I won't lie, i enjoy perma-draws sometimes on certain routes, especially for training purposes. The thing is.. when it starts to DRASTICALLY effect the crag and access in a very negative way… im willing to make some sacrifices to better the area as a whole. The fact that we have the RRGCC, and that all there efforts have secured so much climbing for everyone is a beautiful thing that warms my cold, hard, draw-stripping heart. My question is… when does there need to be people to help preserve the ethics and take actions to instill them?? The answer is right now. A group of local climbers in the red have had long discussions and decided certain things that need to be done. That will certainly not always produce a happy response from people, and we will never be 100% right and perfect. We now even have stupid link ups, and outsiders bolting routes, chipping holds, and gluing rocks on the wall without some much as asking ANYONE if it is ok (and im not saying they should ask me, so relax a little) What happens when the person fixes gear in the clifty area, or bolts and chips a route on forest service land? It can have a VERY negative response that fucks shit up for everyone. Maybe one little link up is no big deal, but what about when these "jabronies" grid bolt our crags!?? Or start bolting cracks and mixed lines!? So, right or wrong.. me and others will chop the bolts on link ups and on a route(s) that have been extremely manufactured (i.e. "pliedriver" at Shady Grove). I realize the petty drama this will create, I realize that hundreds of hours will be wasted commented on this one post, but i wont read it... I'll be out climbing with other monkeys who care enough to take action and DO SOMETHING other than rant on the internet. We won't be perfect in all our actions, and we may not be the perfect people to do this, maybe others have more of a "right"? But... it's happening. These things will not solve all the problems.. and will create inconveniences for some climbers, myself included. If you climb here enough, then stand up against the destruction of your crags and be willing to take action and make sacrifices. No matter how big or small, climb somewhere else if a crag is overcrowded, leave your six dogs at home, tell people they cant park blocking oil roads, tell them there is NO NEED to heavily chip and glue some shitty piece of rock or link two routes. We have a plethora of some of the best and well featured stone in the world. I take full responsibility for what ive said, what ive done, and what i will do, just keep in mind its not just me who feels this way, and its not just me is taking action. If you desire and need to slander me on the internet, i cant stop you, that is your right as red blooded free American. I would prefer you identify yourself and say it to my face, please dont be petty enough to slash my tires or something. If your emotions are that strong, come hit me in face and try to knock me out with the first punch. I can appreciate a good solid hit. So hang some draws, climb on natural features, have good style, have proper ethics, sack up, be safe and have fun. And by the way, the lode is private property… ever stop to think what the owner wanted for HIS land?????

Zach, Are you still working that retro-bolted pile of shit Supercharger? Let's be sure to strip that route. The crowds at drive-by were heinous Sunday and that route is crap anyway. Maizy Mae was way better before some "outsider" bolted the top. So, let's chop it....what do you think?

nazi - derogatory term for a person who is fanatically dedicated to, or seeks to control, some activity, practice, etc.

Zac, IMO your solution is ill thought out and will not fix the problem. Chop all the bolts in the Red if you want to get rid of the gym rat sport climbers. It will be interesting to watch the outcome of your actions.

I have an even better idea...let's go thru the online guide, and strip every route with less than 2 stars.

when you remove bolts zach, you do owe the equipper the courtesy of returning the hangers. and please fill in all the bolt holes properly.

100% support from me...if that matters

Me personally I think that the lode is a load. Way too much traffic and you can get your shit stole. Aside from the crowds and the dogs and the noise, Heaven on earth( did I mention the great big pile of shit around the corner?)

I disagree with one of the main points of this argument and will be happy to tell you in person.

Removing draws so people don't get on routes over their head has nothing to do with showing respect for the land and helping maintain access. It's just a pain in the ass when you want to warm-up or redpoint something. People climb at the Motherlode because it is the pinnacle of RRG-style steep climbing. Removing draws will not change that. It will just make way for bad gear to be put back up where there was once steel gear. Are you going to police the lode every day to remove gear? Why not use that time to encourage more sustainable land-use and biner replacement.

I would happily pay for and equip a route at the lode with steel gear once this mess blows over.

I asked Dario about the whole thing. He told me he was removing himself from the fray and would let the community decide what was best.

Nick Greenwell

Personally I'd like to see a list of the names of the "CREW" that pulled together to do this. I would also like to see their contributions to our community over the years, other than removing expensive steel draws that were purchased and put up by our community through fundraising and collaborative efforts.

I actually kinda feel bad for this "CREW" because I think they're going to eventually regret their actions on this one.

Interesting. I do think permadraws are kinda lame, but for popular routes you always end up with somebody's manky project draws on there anyway, so there really is no difference.

I fully support a backlash against the bolting of routes that can be done on gear, or gluing holds that have fallen off. A little well placed glue to reinforce a key hold seems ok in my book...if it's done without leaving any noticeable trace.

I just wish I still lived close enough to the red so I could witness the brawl that will inevitably arise out of this