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I was talking to Bob last weekend. His post is related to why Mark closed the place when he owned it and is a subject near and dear to KD's heart, poo. Weekend before last Bob thought the weather was OK to start the online access process for the season. First weekend he opens Torrent, somebody poo's in the woods and the Allen's (Torrent caretaker) dog eats it. Gross. This is a simple matter of Responsible Climbing and Leave No Trace. Know the rules, respect the property owner, LNT.

Matt,
I think Lena_Chita and Rollo summed the question up better. Believe me, no one hates what a shit show climbing in the red has become more than me. I see this disgusting sense of entitlement at every major crag. I' ve heard people making fun of Kentucky half way up a route to the rest of their loser friends like they run the damn place. The last time i climbed at Torrent (when Mark owned it) i found a used tampon in the middle of the trail to Seek the Truth.
Most of these people could care less about who owns the land, or the people of this region, or the culture, and the resources; many of which found nowhere else in the world. If we as a community want to do something about this, i am all for it. I think every crag should have a daily limit on people like torrent. One need only look at the very short history of climbing in the area. Look at all the places that are already closed because of overuse. Porter purposed a limited climbing season at places like military to allow for the areas to regrow the rest of the year. Other great management ideas have been proposed.
I think Torrent and Muir are just part of a problem that is much deeper. The Red has become so accessible that people view it like a gym and act accordingly.
Again like many others have said; thank you Bob, Rick, Liz, Matt, Amy, Miguel, and many others for your overwhleming generosity. And Bob if you want someone to kick this trash talking spoiled kid in the balls i'll be first in line. But also realize that if it keeps going like it has in the whole region, you all(on private land) will be the only ones climbing.

sean n

If there were a finite amount of camping available, would there be fewer climbers in the region?

I think that because the red is so close to louisville, cinci, dayton, lexington, and indy that camping isnt really much of a concern. Capt - pooh is close to my butt, not my heart but am glad somebody FINALLY said what the issue was - and pooh is an issue in the most genuine sense

captain static wrote:I was talking to Bob last weekend. His post is related to why Mark closed the place when he owned it and is a subject near and dear to KD's heart, poo. Weekend before last Bob thought the weather was OK to start the online access process for the season. First weekend he opens Torrent, somebody poo's in the woods and the Allen's (Torrent caretaker) dog eats it. Gross. This is a simple matter of Responsible Climbing and Leave No Trace. Know the rules, respect the property owner, LNT.

Information that would have been useful from the outset... How do police that if you don't witness it? Normally when someone is taking a dump I try and give them some privacy and I am not inspecting to see if they are burying properly. I don't even know what the current standard is for pooping at torrent as the only way I have been a guest there is as a cabin renter so I just would go back to the cabin. Anyways, sorry it happened but how does the community police this? Perhaps a non profit friends of torrent manages a porta potty?

I think an intrinsic quality of the greater climbing community that uses the Red is one of entitlement. It goes with being young 20 something involved in a narcissistic sport. The sport draws a self selecting group of people, who have come a long way to get their climbing fix and don't stop to consider who provides for their venue. It is kind of like the poor- they will be with us always.
I am sorry this is a problem Bob. I would personally understand and think it completely reasonable to further restrict access to Torrent. I have to say Torrent has a good steward in you. Best it has had in a long while.

bob wrote:Bottom line … it costs me a fair amount of cash to keep Torrent open to climbing
I am not as concerned about my cash outlay as I am about the air of entitlement that seems to exist in and among the climbing community (please see the comments section for Torrent in the online guidebook).
The least expensive and troublesome route of dealing with these issues is to simply close the property to climbing.

none of these points seem related to poop to me... what are we really talking about here Bob?

an imposition i imagine. but-

it seems to me that as leverage Torrent can be used to turn the tide of entitlement. assholes and douches being locked out should provide incentive to change.
i can't imagine all the possible complications, but if their presence is inescapable, then acknowledging, redirecting, and guiding the energy seems like a reasonable approach.

soo, i wonder, all these people, coming into climbing from where? what is the best strategy to inculcate them before they head to the Red or anywhere else?

no need to bash the "others" as making this a problem.....locals (to me meaning anyone within a 2-3 hour drive of the Red) are no better or no worse at taking care of our land. we are all people, and there is that certain element that will disregard any rules. The more I here, I vote for permanently closing Torrent.

Or is there a way that big massive metal signage can be installed at the trailhead, and up at every wall? I would gladly head up the fundraiser for this. IN letters 12" high, we can spell out the basic rules that shld be common sense, but apparently are not.

So Dr Bob, instead of asking us climbers to police ourselves (which has proven over and over and over to not work), may several of us have your permission to take a different approach to the problem. Not sure what that will end up looking like, but I would begin it if you say it is cool. Your private land, we sort of need your approval to proceed.

i don't see a need for signage.

anyone who is climbing there should have read the rules online.... if they don't wanna follow them it won't matter if you tattoo the rules to their foreheads.

and if they are there without permission... i don't think they care about the list of rules very much.