Bolting question

[pigsteak]

Now that he's talking free bolts I'm getting more interested.

nohting is free...ever.
but then what would the hardware store even carry that is "climbing" approved bythe manufacturer?

[Clevis Hitch]

You're just kickin my ass here...

So how about this. I'll go over to kwikset and set up an account for the SBC. The southern bolters co-operative. Members can buy bolts at a deep discount and people can contribute money to a pay-pal account to buy bolts and gear for bolters. All you gotta do to become a SBC approved bolter is demonstrate safe bolting practices and be willing to conforn to community norms. Not that big of a deal. It accomplishes these things and maybe more. It establishes community norms for bolting, those norms can be whatever we decide. It allows us to by equipment at a deep discount. It allows the community at large to participate in route development by their charitable contributions and if they so desire they can become bolters themselves by "apprenticing" with a qualified bolter.

[dustonian]

This does nothing to address the original topic of this thread and the issue of rapid corrosion of plated expansion bolts in the Red. That is the whole point of glue-ins really, along with tremendous gains in pull-out and shear strength. Also, as for your Kwikset discount, Power-bolts are not really the most expensive element in the system if you choose to go the expansion bolt route... finding good hangers is really the ball-kicker. Maybe I could save 20 cents a bolt or something by going through some cooperative/certification whatever program, but it sounds like a big headache and a lot of unnecessary red tape. What I like about climbing is the lack of nosy bureaucrats and regulation/standardization... I get plenty of that already in medicine and research, and the encroachment of the AMGA and ESTA was precisely the reason I abandoned gay-uiding and rigging as a career. Why deal with (& pay for) a bunch of bullshit and way-homo certification exams for a mediocre salary at best? If you like climbing so much, then just go climb for fuck's sake & get a real job.

I already know the bolts I place are bomber: good rock with 1/2" x 3-3/4 -- 4-3/4" plated Powerbolts, leading-brand hangers (usu. Fixe, Petzl, Acme, Mad Rock, or Metolius), pretreated with Rustoleum if they are plated, on hard routes with super-dry, solid rock.... 6mm-8mm stock Wave, Titt, or Fixe glue-ins + Hilti RE150 or 500 on easier routes with obvious bolt placements and anything in a wet streak or with seasonal seepage. Always well-cleaned holes with a NYLON brush (not steel) and a blow-bulb. Notch the eye and bury it in glue if using Fixe or Petzl. Glue-ins should really be the gold standard, but unfortunately it isn't always practical if the route is near your limit and there is any uncertainty regarding the bolt placements or where the route might end up going... pretty much anything above 12b or c. Not to mention the fact it's a big messy pain in the ass and an extra half-day of work.

I'm already apprenticing a couple of dudes with 2 decades of sport, trad, and aid/El Cap experience and have no time to add any others to the list. It is really a gradual, organic process between friends and an institutionalized approach is unnecessary and inappropriate, not to mention a hassle. For $225+/day, maybe it would be worth it. Plus, it would inevitably lead to a bunch of lousy "training" routes with holes all over the place and misplaced bolts and anchors like you already see at certain unnamed crags around here.

If you come across bolting techniques or equipment that are suspect, chop the route and give the developer hell. I never open a route before personally testing each bolt, and the equipment listed above is optimized for Corbin sandstone. Finally, after many years of searching, it is all pretty much already at the bottom of the price scale--it is pretty tough to get much below $4/bolt if you are using good gear.

[bcombs]

Glue-ins should really be the gold standard, but unfortunately it isn't always practical if the route is near your limit and there is any uncertainty regarding the bolt placements or where the route might end up going... pretty much anything above 12b or c. Not to mention the fact it's a big messy pain in the ass and an extra half-day of work.

I'm going to try using glue-ins this summer. For your comment about not knowing the exact placements, the Fixe Triplex might help. You can drill and place these, climb the line a few times to be sure of your placements, then remove and put in the glue in. This was something that I discussed with a guy from CA (Thomas Addison I believe) when he was in town last. I'll be buying a routes worth (probably 12 or so) of these this summer to use as temps when I don't know for sure about placement.

Forgot the link: http://www.fixeusa.com/bolt.htm

[dustonian]

Yeah, I've used those but don't like them...after a few uses they tend to get stuck, especially in sandstone. Have you tried the 1/2" ClimbTech RB's? They are bad-ass.

[weber]

Very interesting discussion. Lots of good info.

[weber]

I'm going to try using glue-ins this summer. For your comment about not knowing the exact placements, the Fixe Triplex might help. You can drill and place these, climb the line a few times to be sure of your placements, then remove and put in the glue in. This was something that I discussed with a guy from CA (Thomas Addison I believe) when he was in town last. I'll be buying a routes worth (probably 12 or so) of these this summer to use as temps when I don't know for sure about placement.

Forgot the link: http://www.fixeusa.com/bolt.htm

I continue to be puzzled by misinformation that has been printed for years on the Fixe Triplex Bolt page: "Hand tighten to approximately 44 lbs/ sq ft."

Remember from high school physics that lbs/sq ft is pressure - not torque. What should be instructed is: "Tighten to approximately 44 foot-pounds of torque."

Since most developers use "calibrated arms" rather than torque wrenches, this is pretty much a moot point. Still, I would think Mr. Daniels would want to get it right on his website. Also, I'm curious how a developer would do anything but "Hand tighten" his bolts. I don't recall seeing Kipp/Dustin/Hugh up on the rock with an pneumatic impact wrench.

[pigsteak]

are you offering one Rick?

[dustonian]

This page says 25 foot-pounds:

http://www.fixeusa.com/triplex_3-piece_ ... e_bolt.htm

Which one are you looking at Rick? I'm actually thinking about giving these puppies a second chance, given that they are solid stainless and only $7-8/pop--hopefully less if Kevin is in a good mood that day Just wish they made them in a 4-inch model instead of just 3... Also they do tend to get stuck pretty easily on softer rock, even worse than the ClimbTech RB's. I've never had a problem getting their half-inchers out, although it ain't easy on the stupid steep stuff. That and everybody's too scared to actually fall on one even though they are megabomber (I love this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDPctA3svm8)...Karl is rad!

[weber]

This page says 25 foot-pounds:

http://www.fixeusa.com/triplex_3-piece_ ... e_bolt.htm

Which one are you looking at Rick?

http://www.fixeusa.com/triplex.htm