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Heh, maybe because I was like a 5.8 trad leader then? And still led the middle pitch (probably the *omg scary* pitch now with the new bolts), if not that day, then another day that year. But, I also used to be so psyched to tell people I was climbing at Fortress, you know the TRAD crag, and I must be a serious bad ass to lead 5.6 trad routes! Then I actually learned to rock climb, spent some time on actual sorta adventure routes and really good trad pitches, and realized that trad in the red really isn't all that for the most part. There are some killer pitches out there for sure, but the over all quality is kinda meh. Tania is leading trad now, and going back to do some of the early, easy trad routes is kinda fun, but really brings home the fact that they are not all that great. Maybe I will get her to rope gun nevermore for me this fall...

But, back to nevermore - I just love that the "best adventure route" in the red is really just a pitch of nasty chimney, to a east traverse with slammer gear, to a 5.8 dirty crack to a 5.9 sport route, and finish on a dirty 5.8 crack covered in vulture crap. Sorry to ruin those rose colored glasses, but the route is what it is. And it is crap climbing with a good view.

what?

this idea is hard for me to take. there is ALOT of rock i've not seen at the Red, as well as elsewhere; but there are also many cracks as good as any i've ever seen.

I'm not sure if you're only speaking of 'adventure' pitches; but pitch for pitch I'd vouch for the Red's as compared to any in the states.

clif wrote:what?

this idea is hard for me to take. there is ALOT of rock i've not seen at the Red, as well as elsewhere; but there are also many cracks as good as any i've ever seen.

I'm not sure if you're only speaking of 'adventure' pitches; but pitch for pitch I'd vouch for the Red's as compared to any in the states.

Nope. Some good routes, really, really good routes here. But a whole bunch that are not. The new has way better trad route density as but one example. I have gone through the grades here, up to easy 11, and there just isn't a whole lot of really good routes for a given grade. I will also admit that I am a bit of a route snob as well though, and I like different things then a lot of other people - I get bored with the perfect splitters at Indian Creek after a couple days. But, love just about every route/problem I have been on at vedauwoo. I fall on gear. A lot. I like harder routes with better gear more then easier routes with trickier gear. Love clean cracks with more then just left right left jamming / stemming.

Any single pitch of nevermore wouldn't be more then 2 stars if it was a single pitch at an established crag. So, all you are getting is a little bit of exposure and a pretend air of mystic/danger/adventure.

Wes wrote:Any single pitch of nevermore wouldn't be more then 2 stars if it was a single pitch at an established crag. So, all you are getting is a little bit of exposure and a pretend air of mystic/danger/adventure.

geez, and i thought grading routes was subjective.

just said i thought it was great, not that it deverses to be in some climbing rag "top 10 list of all time greatest adventure-climbing, non-choss multi-pitch lines ever". but then again, i sorta enjoy climbing dirty, lichen-covered choss.

either way, i'd recommend it and i'll probably climb it again.

Wes, what about the 5.6/ 5.5 routes @ Table Rock that scared you. What is your excuse or therory on those. I remember you bailing off My Route (5.5) because it was too windy. Back in the day you where just a "bad ass" belayer of charlie and Q, not even a "bad ass" 5.6 leader. Now that they are not out there your the bomb a! Seems to me you have been doing alot of bad ass couch climbing or photoing bad ass climbers. Which one is it? You always did talk more game than you had!

Heh, you mean the day is sleeted then snowed? Yep, not up for that at all. So, you are Kieth right? Maybe Randy? Because you never bailed, either, right? Seriously, you are living like eight years ago over and over.

I haven't climbed much the last couple years for sure, but maybe I have found some other things are are as much fun? Besides, I climbed routes that you couldn't touch on your very best days, so go back to the bong and re-living the glory days when two pitches of choss 5.9 trad was a full day.

Jesus, it's getting deep in here.

bcombs wrote:Jesus, it's getting deep in here.

yea, on the wrong end of the pool. i try and start some shit by not-so-subtley suggesting the bolts be chopped on nevermore and it degenerates (like all the topics on here lately) into the whole sport vs. trad, my wee-wee be bigger than thous bullshit.

i'll try again.

so, yea man. imma climb nevermore again...but i'll be sure to rack a socket wrench this time...suckas!!!!

We all know how you are and you probably still suck!

elcapitan1974 wrote:We all know how you are and you probably still suck!

Yep.