THANKS and Perma Draw Poll

Post by **pawilkes** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:38 pm

I bet the swaged cable would be cheaper than chain and if you got stainless cable it should last a long time. It should be plenty strong enough considering most nuts and hexes are made that way. Weren't they using something like that down in Muir?

Post by **weber** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:12 pm

pawilkes wrote:I bet the swaged cable would be cheaper than chain and if you got stainless cable it should last a long time. It should be plenty strong enough considering most nuts and hexes are made that way. Weren't they using something like that down in Muir?

Several Muir routes have swaged stainless steel cables for top anchors. Although the materials to make them are in same price range as ring anchors or chain anchors, they require an expensive swaging tool to make a perfect swage. And, nothing less than an accurately-gaged swage should be considered for something you're hanging your life on. Although the Fixe ring anchors are about 20% stronger than these cable anchors, both are adequate for static loads typically found in climbing top anchor systems.

We are no longer interested in constructing cable permadraws that would receive dynamic (shock) loading. And, because perfectly acceptable hardware is readily available commercially, cable top anchors are no longer being installed on MV routes.

Rick

Post by **pawilkes** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:05 pm

fair enough, sounds like another sound annaylsis Rick. i wonder though, do the chains do much as far as handling dynamic loads, i'd imagine they don't

Post by **pigsteak** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:30 pm

y'all are just shooting for the dumbest common denominator. if everyone of you pansy skinny asses changed out a few draws every season after taking your redpoint burns on your latest futuristic line, there'd be no problem.

So here is the easy answer that no one wants to hear. Pony up your personal gear and money, and the next time you plan to get on the route of the week fashion runway, replace the draws. If the stuff you take down is still in good shape, then you have some booty. And you'll rest at night knowing you serviced mankind.

I say RRGCC should buy some more land with the cash.

Post by **the lurkist** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:56 pm

After much thought and reflection on this a while back ( re replacing all of the cave draws with perma draws) I came to the same conclusion. I just started buying roles of super tape and tying my own draws and using the biners from the previously abandoned fixed draws (the ones that still had life) to outfit the replacement draws and then fluch out the biners with my own. Cheap, yeah, worked, yeah. Much easier than making a bunch of perma draws.
I still worry about climbers going out there and whipping on cave routes (or whatever) on real old fixed draws. Oh well...

Post by **pigsteak** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:06 pm

what we have mr. lurkist is the "me first" mentality. if every climber carried some extra biners and webbing, then there would be no real problem.

so replacement team, I am in for any route I can stick clip up on RRGCC land. let me know, and I put webbing and biners up for all to use.

any other takers?

Post by **the lurkist** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:52 pm

I have to mea culpa myself to say that I am guilty of the "me first". I could have sacked up and started re equipping routes with the forever gear (stainless swaged cable and stainless biners) but I am too cheap. I will back up a bit of good will and cover the cost of several rolls of super tape or biners or cable or partial cost of a swager or whatever....
I defer to team suck, but put me down for under writing.

Post by **Tunica Intima** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:17 pm

I'm not saying I have never climbed on draws that were on routes that are always up, but isn't that generally a bad idea. Who knows where they came from, how long they have been up and until your up on the route you really can't tell what condition they are in. I've changed a few biners and draws out before, but how does anyone know i have not misused them to tow my truck or spilled acid from my car battery on them. Plus I have seen aluminum biners that have almost been worn all the way through, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. So if the cost of a chain with a steel biner is fairly comparable, wouldn't it make sense to use that on a route. The chain would not break down in the sun or weather, the biner would take alot more wear, and you would know these aren't somebodies old manky worn out draws, that they don't want anymore. Chains can't stick out much more than brightly colored slings either. I just don't think it's a good idea for random people to just relpace draws whenever on whatever, it just doesn't seem like a safe practice to do on something we trust ourselves falling on. Also they only need to be on routes that are hard to clean that people leave up all the time anyway. Or just take the draws down then nobody has to worry about climbing on draws that they don't know about.

Post by **pigsteak** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 8:12 pm

tunica....stay off the steep stuff then, cause you will be climbing on the random kindness of strangers. this isn't rocket science. if you are not comfortable with draws on a line, hang your own and leave the others in place. no one makes us use the "fixed" gear. it is a choice.

as mentioned earlier...draws hanging negates a redpoint..period. that was covered in the first corollary manual years ago. you wanna spray, hang the draws. otherwise, join the tina toproping crowd.

Post by **Tunica Intima** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 8:57 pm

So people climbing on donated perma chains wouldn't be climbing on the random kindess I guess. And by the official logic I guess then nobody has redpointed just about everything on the undertow and the madness, or chris sharma on realization, or about any hard first ascent for that matter. Let me ask you this, would you climb on a rope that was just left on a tarp at the bottom of a climb that you had no idea how long it had been there or whose it was? My point was if team suck was asking about replacing routes that were hard to clean and had draws up all the time, why put something up that will have to be continually changed and is not supposed to be left out in the elements anyway, when one can put up chains that will last several times the life of webbing. If its just because you don't like the way they look, or its just not your way.... well to each his own. Someone else brought up the chains suggestion, I was just stating how that would make more sense and be cost effective. And don't kid yourself its not all kindness. I have left draws up on routes only to be stollen or replaced by pieces of junk (when the draws did not need replacement). I never said it wasn't a choice to climb on them, just a question of is it a safe choice. Sorry safety gets your panties in a bunch.
Greg