split topic, from Two Muir Routes closed

[Spoonman]

As far as the route you bolted that you claimed to bolted for me. I told you to go ahead and do it yourself along time ago. I did not give it away, I told them it was your route and to ask you.

This is 100% lie, and Half the reason I am pissed is that you never even thanked me for it, the other half is being jacked around ..........first i can do a route, then after i work my ass off, then you can't. It really has very little to do with route approval.

I worked Peace Frog heavy in the cave. One day (about six weeks ago)........Mike asked about the line? when is Tim going to do it. I said I did not know. He asked If I I cared if he did it. I said not really, because you never even thanked me for it. Awhile later he asked If I would belay him on it. I said that I could not, because I didn't want to have anything to do someone taking someone elses route.

A ton of people asked me about that route and I always told them it was yours. It would have been done a long time ago, if what you say was true.

Guess what...........he did it this weekend. Guess what he named it? It is in chalk under the route.

[Spoonman]

As for respect and the courage it takes to post on the net: I have never liked the meaness that you see in the forum, speacially when it is a troll or the people do not know each other. In this case, it is more open than any other form of possible arrangement, plus open to debate.

It is too easy to go with the crowd. Never cause a ripple. I know I am losing my chance to ever put up a route at the M. Thing is ....I might help someone else not have to put up with this bull.

I respected Tim's choice to not approve a route. I do not respect the way he handles things. Purnell (my mistake) told me- "tim says we can do anything at the stadium." So I put some anchors in and ..........It is spoken for. I apolijize, and donate the anchors. I then ask Tim where i can go to find a route. He says between the solarium and the new area. I find a route (while on a two week vacation with the drill I had to borrow) and then he says no you cannot bolt it becasue he is changing the bolting proceedure. (he just did that 6 months ago.)

Then Hugh tries to help me with his approved line. Tim says no because he has a bolt issue (actually true, but I could still work on the route and even send it without bolts-TR, clean it, and get all the bolt placements secure. I just want something to do, and some straight answers.

[weber]

Guess what...........he did it this weekend. Guess what he named it? It is in chalk under the route.

Yes, Greg, we saw the 5-foot long graffiti tag. Hard to miss. Since that area never gets rain, it's as good as paint.

In the past few weeks at the Sanctuary, we also saw and removed lots of litter, including bleach bottles, paper, tape, cig butts, and worst of all, beer cans. Liz and I are saddened by the willful desecration of this beautiful place.

We've also received credible reports of drinking and even under-age drinking at the Sanctuary. The legal ramifications are profound. It's easier now to understand why many private landowners close off climbing areas. Along with the many decent, respectful persons who climb up there, are a few ill-mannered adolescent monkeys who seem bent on spoiling it for everyone.

One more time for the record: alcoholic beverages are NOT allowed in Muir Valley. Please save the beers for your day's end celebrating/lamenting. And, a big thanks to all of you who tidy up after yourselves and others when you leave!

Rick

[Saxman]

Please pick up any trash you see, even if it is not your own. It's not that hard.

[Christian]

Mr. Weber if I see anyone drinking there what is the course of action you would suggest. (pm me in invisible ink.)

[busty]

In the past few weeks at the Sanctuary, we also saw and removed lots of litter, including bleach bottles, paper, tape, cig butts, and worst of all, beer cans. Liz and I are saddened by the willful desecration of this beautiful place.

We've also received credible reports of drinking and even under-age drinking at the Sanctuary. The legal ramifications are profound. It's easier now to understand why many private landowners close off climbing areas. Along with the many decent, respectful persons who climb up there, are a few ill-mannered adolescent monkeys who seem bent on spoiling it for everyone.

Rick

I'm sorry to hear this. Its unfortunate that some do not respect the rules the Webers have set. I wish people would stop and look at the big picture and how their actions could affect climbing access for everyone.

[weber]

Its unfortunate that some do not respect the rules the Webers have set. I wish people would stop and look at the big picture and how their actions could affect climbing access for everyone.

The overwhelming majority of climbers at Muir have been super! You all more than make up for the few bad eggs. We especially appreciate your suggestions and constructive criticism. Keep it coming. Your input is helping to make this a better place to climb.

Rick

[Ultra]

You should go ahead and close Muir valley. I can see now that you are never going to be satisfied with peoples conduct on your land. Whether its people bolting "improperly" or if its jack-assed adolesent monkeys sneaking a few beers or someone argueing about routes and bolting. And to think someone was huffing bleach on your property is out of control!
No wait....come to think of it you are the one out of control. Why do you think you can micro-manage peoples lives? Granted you own the land and yes, you allow people to climb. But there are a couple of things that I and other people take issue with. Bolting people donate crazy amounts of time to bolt. They buy the hardware with their hard-earned money. Dedicate their weekends off to cleaning and equiping routes. Other than using proper hardware and safe bolt placements. Why do you care?You are getting shit for free. The whole rest of the gorge is bolted well, no route infringing on other routes. It didn't happen in a controled enviroment like at Muir. It just happened. Why do you have to try and control it so much? Look at the situation with Greg. He is more than qualified to bolt on his own. He doesn't need someone riding strauboss, telling him where and how to bolt. You are allowing your "sherriff" to run off one of the most qualified bolters you have. What you are going to be left with is a bunch of soccer moms who's bolting/climbing experience is limited to what you tell them! Put yourself in Gregs position. He is inarguably as qualified if not more so than Tim. But because Tim is so controling (with your approval) Greg is gone! I gaurantee that if you turned Greg loose in "precious" valley that he would erect something beautiful well bolted and fun. Not just some cookie cutter gym route that,"I read the instruction manual,so I know how to bolt!"
Your first reaction is going to be to dismiss me and what I've said as just a rant....You should consider your ways.

[lordjim_2001]

so I can see what the beer, smokes, tape, and maybe paper, is doing down there but what's up with the bleach bottle?

[meetVA]

Why do you care?You are getting shit for free. The whole rest of the gorge is bolted well, no route infringing on other routes. It didn't happen in a controled enviroment like at Muir. It just happened.

Just some thoughts that come to mind:

1. Maybe they are trying to avoid the saying of : You get what you pay for.
2. Talk to any experienced bolter in the Red and they will tell you of numerous routes that are poorly bolted/ dangerously bolted/ should never have been bolted...
3. An un- "Controlled environment" like hiding the fact that a new area is being developed to prevent others from poaching lines or what not.

Give up your little kiddy tirade.

There may be a personality conflict going on with Muir Vally and other folks. That happens, we are all people and make mistakes and get mad and offended, behave well and behave poorly.
It is sad that the conflict extended onto this board instead of as a conversation between to mutually respecting adults. However, oftentimes this board is an easy step to start communication and it is helpful and other times hurtful.

In the end though, whether or not climbing is available in MV is up to the Webers. If some people are really itchin' to bolt and don't like the rules of MV, why don't they do it the old fashion way-- hunt down potential areas from a topo and develop them on their own? Climbing in MV is not a right, it is a priveledge. We are fortunate (if you like the climbing there) that the Weber's bought it and opened it up to the public and have put a TON of their own money into it rather than some other couple who would have kept it selfishly to themselves.