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I guess I always try to point out the difference between what is precived to be dangarous and what is actually dangerous. Or what might be thought of as causing a problem, vs. what might be actually more of a factor.

Wes, you are making very valid points on all this. I agree with you on much of what you have brought up since you are taking a very practical approach. The law takes a different view sometimes..most of the time... and most people generally don't know the zillions of legal quirks that effect everything you do in life. I just hope I have given that perspective to this thread.

I used to have a big fear of pumping out and falling trying to clip the chains. Once I started taking falls from the chains, that fear went away, because I *knew* I was going to take the fall anyway, so there was nothing extra that I was risking by trying to go for it. Made a big difference in my climbing.

What, excatly, is wrong with the "excietement of the fall"? Is that somehow different from the excitment of the lead? Or of just climbing?

And, I take plenty of falls while climbing as well. But the anchor ones sorta keep my head *right* for some reason.

dhoyne wrote:Not sure on this one, how exactly does falling from the anchors after the climb is over help your lead head?

If you just want the excitement of a fall, jump off the rock by Gladie into the Red. Or jump out of an airplane.


<----never understood why people like falling (gets enough practice while actually climbing)

Dear Rick, Do a "sack drop" and tell the children to STFU!! Its your ball, your court and your game! If they don't like it they can take their cry-baby asses someplace else.

'nuff said!!!

I would also like to point out that as far as sandstone is concerned. It is way more bomb-proof than the choss they climb on out here. Red Rocks sport routes are dangerous. You can see the rock flex!
To say that bolting in Red Rocks is"experimental" is putting it kind. I can show you nightmare anchors. Open cold-shuts half worn through. Garage sale bolts and homemade hangers. I personally don't like Red Rocks.
You guys at the gorge enjoy a standeard that the rest of the world doesn't embrace. Rawls and Red head. You guys got it good and you don't even know.

Wes wrote:Rick, how do you climb (and allow/encourge people to climb) on this super soft corbin sandstone? I mean if a super low fall factor fall from the anchors can be harmfull to the bolt placement...

I climb because I'm bit crazy. I allow others to climb in Muir with the appropriate warnings that they too might be a bit crazy.

This is your brain... This is your brain on chalk dust. Any questions?

Wes wrote:Actually, I think a bigger factor in creating loose bolts and spinners, is when the bolts are not on center. To use a non-muir route (so j-rock wont think I am somehow questioning the size of his manhood) on Crazyfingers, you clip the last bolt, then move up and right to the chains. If I were to clip the last bolt, and take the victory whip, the force on that bolt would be mostly down and not very high. If I were to clip the anchors, and lower, that last draw will rotate to the right, putting a twisting type force on that hanger, which over time will cause the bolts to loosen/spin in the hole, or wear away the surface rock. Also, when you lower off of the two rap rings in the same plane setup, you put turning (loosening) forces one of the anchor bolts.

So, anywhere you have bolts that are not lined up in the center, you will have the rope pulling the hangers in directions they were not dsigned to be pulled. And this, to me, seems like a much greater factor in creating loose and spinning bolts then any falls.

Wes, thank you for clearly stating your opinion on how to bolt sport routes. I've heard this school of thought from a couple others in the Red. However, I respectfully disagree.

I think if we were to poll top gun climb developers from around the world, the majority would agree that bolting in a straight line is impractical, if not outright impossible in many areas like the Red where the rock is wildly featured. I'm sure you are aware that there are many factors that determine bolt placement, including locating good clipping stances, finding a hard, receptive surface for a hole, and routing the climb through particularly interesting formations.

In a gym or on a relatively blank wall of homogeneous material, maybe a straight line would work most of the time. But in the Red on this cottage cheese? I don't think so.

On a related note, not directed at you Wes, but rather in general, I'm often frustrated that the super folks who tirelessly put up routes at Muir for all of us to enjoy are not there to hear the literally hundreds of compliments on the quality of the climbs in Muir. We are overwhelmed with climbers --including some of the finest in the country -- stopping by the barn or writing notes to say nice things about the climbs. What our developers DO hear is the whines of a handful of RRG locals about what's wrong.

Tim, Jared, Karla, JJ, Mike, Mark, Jenny, Skip, Amy, Greg and many others -- Thanks very much (!) and keep doing exactly what you are doing.

Rick

Ha, no, you cannot get a stright line always, but you can usually get pretty close.

But, really, when you post that taking falls undermines the saftey of the bolt placements, then I would respectfully say that you are very wrong. And that spinner and loose bolts are much more likly to be caused by poor bolt placements. Many of which could easily be moved slightly one way or another.

So, I guess all the routes are perfect at Muir then, and there can be no dissagreement on ratings or bolt placements, or it is just whinning? I see, no problem if that is what you all want to hear. Come to muir, drink the kool aid, and pretend it is perfect. Sounds just like the way the RRGCC was a year or two ago. Jarrad makes a nice gretchen...

Wes wrote:Rick, I understand that you want to keep things as "safe" as possible, but from my expence, people don't get hurt taking intentinal falls or doing r rated routes. People get hurt because they make mistakes when lowering/rapping, when they fall on less then vert routes, get a hard catch and get slammed into the wall, when the blow the 1st, 2nd or even 3rd clip and hit the ground. If you really want to keep people safe then, it seems to me you would want to focus on the things that actually cause problems?

If you read through my postings over the past months, you'll see my focus has been on ALL these activities. In particular, I am concerned about routes designed in such a way that a climber will deck if he misses the second clip. Do these kind of routes exist everywhere in the Red? Yes. But we try to avoid them wherever possible in Muir. Generally, the first bolts are located high, but within stick clip range. The second bolt is located close to the first bolt. The rest start spreading out.

Rick

Wes wrote:Ha, no, you cannot get a stright line always, but you can usually get pretty close.

But, really, when you post that taking falls undermines the saftey of the bolt placements, then I would respectfully say that you are very wrong. And that spinner and loose bolts are much more likly to be caused by poor bolt placements. Many of which could easily be moved slightly one way or another.

So, I guess all the routes are perfect at Muir then, and there can be no dissagreement on ratings or bolt placements, or it is just whinning? I see, no problem if that is what you all want to hear. Come to muir, drink the kool aid, and pretend it is perfect. Sounds just like the way the RRGCC was a year or two ago. Jarrad makes a nice gretchen...

Well, so much for the respectfulness.

No, of course not, the routes in Muir are not perfect, and we have always welcomed CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, of which yours, up until this post, was.

Many of you have offered us constructive criticism in a respectful manner and you know how it was received. Hell, I give Jared plenty of it. It's the non-constructive whinning we can all do without. If you re-read my response to you, Wes, about the straight lining of routes, you will find no nastiness, so I'm disappointed in your most recent comments.

Besides what's wrong with Kool Aide? I can get high on that stuff. Completely lose my head and go out and take victory whippers without a rope. Damn that hurts!

Rick

What our developers DO hear is the whines of a handful of RRG locals about what's wrong.

I guess I took that is aimed at me, since I am a sorta local, and I have given my opinion on some things that I think could have been done better. And that was NOT well recieved. In fact, I think that any kind of even slightly negitive comments about muir were met with a very strong response, irregardless of how it was intended (constructive or not).

My personal feelings, as best as I can express them, are that Muir is a great resourse, that it has a ton of good to exceptional routes. I also feel that maybe too many routes were put up in too much of a hurry, without fully thinking about bolt placements and how the routes would be climbed. Maybe the developers got a case of FA fever, and couldn't see anything but the next route...

Wes, it seems that you are obviously uncomfortable with the "size of my manhood". Or are you just jealous that a group of "non locals" came around and started putting up routes better and faster than you and your crew ever could? Maybe this is the reason for the huge number of criticisms (some of which are probably helfpul and constructive, but many that are not). Most of them seem to be coming from a small "select" group of locals who feel it is important for them to continuously bad mouth the developers of another new area.

I find it to be rather amusing and odd that several times when I have gotten into an argument that you have accused me of being concerned about my "ego" or the "size of my manhood" when I have always attempted to be open and honest. It kind of reminds me of adolescence. There, is that a good enough "Gretchen impersonation" for you or would you rather continue calling names and arguing about the size of my manhood like a bullied little school boy whenever somebody disagrees with you?