What did everyone get on this weekend?
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squeezindlemmon
- Posts: 1452
- Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:02 pm
Grades are determined, in most cases - if not all, by a) the first ascentionist and b) consensus.
The only way to be consistent with gradings anywhere is to have only one person FA the whole world. Wishful thinking; correction, crazy thinking.
The only way to be consistent with gradings anywhere is to have only one person FA the whole world. Wishful thinking; correction, crazy thinking.
Emancipate yourself from mental slavery. None but ourselves can free our mind. ~Bob Marley
buster, I agree to a point. however, there is consistency in it, just not perfect consistency. but neither are the ratings on roped climbs. or aid lines. or ice climbs..are you suggesting that we do away with all ratings?
so you mean, when one wants to spray, we just say "I sent Dicombobulated at the High Jacks Area", and the world will know? I won't have to subtle spray that it was V8...maybe v10ish...?
I would argue that ratings are fairly consistent in any given area, given enough time for consensus to form. so after awhile, I know I can expect a V3 to feel a certain difficulty. this is probably an innane discussion anyway, because V ratings are not going away. might as well get used to it. it just so happens that it is very vogue right now to bash ratings..sort of like people trying to claim they are not part of the establishment....when sport climbing started, many eschewed that. when indoor gym started, many bad mouthed them. when bouldering became the sport of the month, well, here we are....
so you mean, when one wants to spray, we just say "I sent Dicombobulated at the High Jacks Area", and the world will know? I won't have to subtle spray that it was V8...maybe v10ish...?
I would argue that ratings are fairly consistent in any given area, given enough time for consensus to form. so after awhile, I know I can expect a V3 to feel a certain difficulty. this is probably an innane discussion anyway, because V ratings are not going away. might as well get used to it. it just so happens that it is very vogue right now to bash ratings..sort of like people trying to claim they are not part of the establishment....when sport climbing started, many eschewed that. when indoor gym started, many bad mouthed them. when bouldering became the sport of the month, well, here we are....
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.
Ratings are entirely SUBJECTIVE!!!
At best they are just an educated guess. The more routes that person climbs, and the more areas they visit, and the more styles, and the more varied the difficulties of the routes that they climb... then the more educated their guess will be.
At best they are just an educated guess. The more routes that person climbs, and the more areas they visit, and the more styles, and the more varied the difficulties of the routes that they climb... then the more educated their guess will be.
"Those iron spikes you use have shortened the life expectancy of the Totem Pole by 50,000 years."
--A Navaho elder
--A Navaho elder
jrock..that is a pretty obvious statement. of course they are subjective, given there are no measurable attributes to climbing. it's like saying..."jordan had a great game".....how do you measure it? maybe you measure it by his points scored..objective number. but you could also measure it by the fact that he played stellar defense..more subjective. and it may be that he had the flu, and walking onto the court was the feat to be measured....highly subjective.
but ratings being subjective does not mean they are irrelevant. accountants make subjective decisions all the time. auditing is highly subjective, but yes, based on experience in the situation. our entire financial system relies on these subjective opinions. finding beauty in a specific woman is a highly subjective endeavor as well, but we continue to do it. not all cultures look at outward beauty with the same parameters that americans do.
but ratings being subjective does not mean they are irrelevant. accountants make subjective decisions all the time. auditing is highly subjective, but yes, based on experience in the situation. our entire financial system relies on these subjective opinions. finding beauty in a specific woman is a highly subjective endeavor as well, but we continue to do it. not all cultures look at outward beauty with the same parameters that americans do.
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.
I agree. It seems that many people feel that ratings should be more objective, but afterall they are just approximations.
However, I'll value and trust the guesses of a climber who has done 5 or 6 hundred 5.10's and 5.11's (in different areas/rock types/styles, etc) more than the opinions of another climber who has only climbed one hundred 5.10's and 5.11's (or a climber who exclusively climbs one style or grade of route). It just makes for a more eduated guess. This doesn't mean that it will always be accurate, but it will be a more informed opinion.
Note the words: "subjective", "approximations", "opinions", "guess"
What I am trying to say is: a more experienced climber will probably have a more educated guess.
However, I'll value and trust the guesses of a climber who has done 5 or 6 hundred 5.10's and 5.11's (in different areas/rock types/styles, etc) more than the opinions of another climber who has only climbed one hundred 5.10's and 5.11's (or a climber who exclusively climbs one style or grade of route). It just makes for a more eduated guess. This doesn't mean that it will always be accurate, but it will be a more informed opinion.
Note the words: "subjective", "approximations", "opinions", "guess"
What I am trying to say is: a more experienced climber will probably have a more educated guess.
"Those iron spikes you use have shortened the life expectancy of the Totem Pole by 50,000 years."
--A Navaho elder
--A Navaho elder
I think the grades depend upon a combination of many factors:
1. The steepness of the rock
2. The size of the holds
3. The distance between the holds
4. The length of the route
5. The availability of rests, etc.
6. The techniques required, etc.
7. A consensus of experienced climbers, etc. etc.
8. Is it an onsight grade, redpoint grade, top-rope grade, etc.
9. Probably some more stuff that I forgot to mention
10. Egos
At Muir we've downgraded the grades on an equal number of routes as those that we have upgraded (due to consensus and comparisons to other routes of a similar grade). If people disagree then they can cast a vote for another grade.
For example: Annie the Annihilator was originally 5.10a (now 5.10c)
Tradisfaction was 5.10a (now 5.10b)
Bitter Ray of Sunshine was 5.11a (now 5.10d)
Touch of Grey was 5.11b (now 5.11a), etc. etc.
Several grades were even changed many times before they ever made it to the online guide after we climbed different variations, etc.
1. The steepness of the rock
2. The size of the holds
3. The distance between the holds
4. The length of the route
5. The availability of rests, etc.
6. The techniques required, etc.
7. A consensus of experienced climbers, etc. etc.
8. Is it an onsight grade, redpoint grade, top-rope grade, etc.
9. Probably some more stuff that I forgot to mention
10. Egos
At Muir we've downgraded the grades on an equal number of routes as those that we have upgraded (due to consensus and comparisons to other routes of a similar grade). If people disagree then they can cast a vote for another grade.
For example: Annie the Annihilator was originally 5.10a (now 5.10c)
Tradisfaction was 5.10a (now 5.10b)
Bitter Ray of Sunshine was 5.11a (now 5.10d)
Touch of Grey was 5.11b (now 5.11a), etc. etc.
Several grades were even changed many times before they ever made it to the online guide after we climbed different variations, etc.
"Those iron spikes you use have shortened the life expectancy of the Totem Pole by 50,000 years."
--A Navaho elder
--A Navaho elder