Great thread and yeah thanks a ton for giving us the heads up..that was awesome I wish more people would do that.
Also a big thanks for getting Sandy all piss-off. No offense Sandy but I love it when you get into pissing contests with other posters!
As much as the RRGCC probably hates this web page, I think it has helped to keep them on their toes and might have caused some positive change. We bitched about the lack of cummunication and now have tons of info.
dang, rhunt, I didn't even break out my Freshette for that one... If you want to see me get pissed off for real, someone is going to have to try harder!
I was geniunely concerned, not trying to be right - just trying to understand and help. STOP PERSECUTING ME ALREADY!
Man this thread rocks! First, I can tell you from experience that 1) Federal Regulations are not laws and can be changed every month if the agency in Washington DC wants too. So honestly, unless you look it up on the CFR every month, you're out of date. 2) The Lurkist makes a dang good point, if we as climbers in the Red are going to organize under the coalition to address these issues, then it IS the coalition's business to minimize impact and to address the Universities. Cooperation can be organized over and above what the Forest Service requires. There's never harm in educating these groups on their impact and how they can work to minimize it. 3) What's wrong with being questioned? Damn, you'd think that the coalition was some kind of over-bearing oligarchy hell bent on dissuading people. I know that's not the intended result and I know that the coalition is stretched thin. In that case,people like Sandy who are willing to go out and find the answers and develop new solutions should be welcomed, not berated.
Jesus only knows that she tries too hard. She's only trying to keep the sky from falling.
I hope that all of you will not automatically stereotype every university group that climbs in the RRG. I climb with a university group almost every weekend at the Red, although many times this is only me and one or two other people. There are many universities that have the classes that will take over a crag, or a group that refuses to split up or that require members to pay for every trip. But remember too that many outing clubs serve as much as a forum for simply getting friends together to climb as much as they serve as a way for new people who are interested in learning a sport to be able to do so. Now I can't say that our club has always had the least impact on an area, or that if we have a large group we always split up, but for the most part we don't want to take over a crag any more than anyone else wants us to, we especially try to avoid taking big groups to the most popular crags, we clean up our trash, and well overall try to avoid trouble.
In my opinion these university clubs or classes are often not any more annoying than the large groups of people that can sort of "develop" at a crag when people start spraying, or the groups of high school students who stay up all night at the campsites. The classes may be particularly annoying due to their size and limits on sharing ropes or routes, but it seems better to me that the students take the class rather than just picking up some gear and heading out without anyone ever having taught them how to lead, how to clean, etc etc. As for the clubs, keep in mind these are students, and most of them work their a** off during the week so that they will have some time to chill out over the weekend and enjoy some climbing, the same as any of the rest of you. Everyone thinks the Red is getting crowded, we all see the problems of overuse, all understand that there are laws in place for recreation on FS land... but don't blame all the universities as the cause of the problems, and please don't automatically sneer at us when we show up at Miguel's. For the most part I have found that many of the university groups are responsible about their use and realize they have impacts (thus the whole start of this thread).
Parhelia. you make a good point. Its not just university groups that do these things. We tend to single them out because often enough they advertise their presence by havine monogramed 15 passenger vans at the parking areas.
That is a good point Parhelia. Many of the loud-mouthed non-university groups that you see developing at the crags also do trail maintenance and some of them are meeting out at Solar Collector today to help build a bridge. My point was never to attack the University clubs but to state that they do create a large impact so they should be made aware of how to give back. Oh and also, when you have 95 people in line for a route, let a climber pull your rope and warm up, eh?
Jesus only knows that she tries too hard. She's only trying to keep the sky from falling.
you know...I have to agree with bberlier. Call it the curse of the Ohitians or whatever you self-righteous, Lexington dwelling, backward hicks call us, but you sound like a broken record Sandy...Why? Why? Why? And then you say you are soooo interested in this topic so that you can provide a service in "doing" your part by helping get info out on the subject. I say Bullshit!!! If you are so damn hell bent on providing a service and helping educate, then educate your own damn self first and then start working with the RRGCC and the CAC and host clinics at local gyms and at the red itself and actually be proactive instead of an annoying ass bitch that is wasting hella bandwith with her repetition of why's. Either take your place in the front of the bus or sit your complacent ass in the back *(not meant to be racist)*
Though this thread has been very informative, the tone is why I don't visit this forum any more. And the tone was set by Sandy. It was assaultive from the beginning. As one with an English degree you weren't "just asking questions." Re-read. You were accusing and threatening in tone. The term "badgering" seems to describe it well. You could have been "just asking questions" but you weren't. If you can't hear that when read aloud then that explains a lot.
But before you take this as only an assault I do find your dedication admirable. You did a lot of research and made phone calls but you probably should have done that before you started posting accusing questions about a legal issue. You are very worried about the condition of the climbing areas as all of us should be. I always haul out trash I find (and there's a shocking amount) and I'm sure you do as well. I hope everyone reading this does.
But it's the bullying, domineering tone of voice I can't take.
So, back to THUNDER OVER LOUISVILLE and generally ignoring this forum.
[size=75]You are as bad as Alan, and even he hits the mark sometimes. -charlie
"Not all conservatives are stupid, but most stupid people are conservative." - John Stuart Mill[/size]
Awesome man! Now there's a guy who needs his midol. And you wonder why Ohio sucks ass?
jefflehmkuhl wrote:you know...I have to agree with bberlier. Call it the curse of the Ohitians or whatever you self-righteous, Lexington dwelling, backward hicks call us, but you sound like a broken record Sandy...Why? Why? Why? And then you say you are soooo interested in this topic so that you can provide a service in "doing" your part by helping get info out on the subject. I say Bullshit!!! If you are so damn hell bent on providing a service and helping educate, then educate your own damn self first and then start working with the RRGCC and the CAC and host clinics at local gyms and at the red itself and actually be proactive instead of an annoying ass bitch that is wasting hella bandwith with her repetition of why's. Either take your place in the front of the bus or sit your complacent ass in the back *(not meant to be racist)*
Jesus only knows that she tries too hard. She's only trying to keep the sky from falling.
