Pocket Wall, will access ever be restored?
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captain static
- Posts: 2438
- Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2002 6:05 pm
BTW, the OCA is currently working on two city park climbing projects. At Eden Park, we have been contacted by the Park Board about installing bolt anchors at the top of the wall. We are also working on a new area where an old limestone quarry has been donated to a city and they are turning it into a park. The cliff line looks suprisingly natural.
"Be responsible for your actions and sensitive to the concerns of other visitors and land managers. ... Your reward is the opportunity to climb in one of the most beautiful areas in this part of the country." John H. Bronaugh
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the lurkist
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- Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 2:07 pm
If you have the support of the Municipality have you considered the unlikely but possible idea of an outdoor bouldering park. This could be constructed with faux boulders using techniques similar to those used in Disney World, theme parks etc? Rob Butch (owner of Rock Sport) had considered it and made a pitch to the Louisville City Government. While I think it has been permanently back burnered, he initially had a bit of interest and had plans for going forward. It would be a very cool facility.
"It really is all good ! My thinking only occasionally calls it differently..."
Normie
Normie
Personally, I appreciate Wilson Francis's position. If there weren't people trying to preserve the forest in its natural state than human greed would consume it. Imagine a lumber company with as much passion for chopping trees as climbers do for climbng. Should their desires be appeased just because they have a loud voice? The Red has definately experienced an overload of climbers in the past five years and the result is highly-impacted cliff lines. Climbers mean well, but it is a fact that we have adversly effected the cliffline ecology. Should this go on un-checked?
From a more global perspective, Do you think the preservation of biological diversity as superior to the climbing communities needs to have new routes?
From a more global perspective, Do you think the preservation of biological diversity as superior to the climbing communities needs to have new routes?
I gotta admit I'm with Muao Dib on this one. I mean Wilson is a radical, and we don't like radicals but I've seen a crap load of damage done by climbers. How many times have I seen someone walking up to the cliff with an endangered wildflower behind their ear? If nothing else his militaristic style has helped (some) of the climbing community check theirselves. I'm sure most of the climbers I know would be cool with low impact, but without an understanding of the impact you create how can you be low impact?
And of course many people think they're in a gym and could care less. I've got applications in to be the guy culling the herd but haven't heard anything back yet.
That said, I haven't seen any rare species at pocket wall. There are plenty more at Tower, Dip, and many of the other well traveled walls. The camping closure at funk rock has done wonders for reclamation and that area is beautiful now. Climbers weren't the problem there but that's not true everywhere.
And of course many people think they're in a gym and could care less. I've got applications in to be the guy culling the herd but haven't heard anything back yet.
That said, I haven't seen any rare species at pocket wall. There are plenty more at Tower, Dip, and many of the other well traveled walls. The camping closure at funk rock has done wonders for reclamation and that area is beautiful now. Climbers weren't the problem there but that's not true everywhere.
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the lurkist
- Posts: 2240
- Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 2:07 pm
True climbers have had their impacts. So goes foot traffic so goes impacts at the bases. To be clear though, all significant climber impacts occur at the bases. The unstable soils suffer, the vegetation at the cliff line suffers, etc. The rock,however, is resilient, even on the most traveled climbs (e.g. Sunshine and Moonbeam).
Climbers can be educated to do the right thing. If informed of the correct cliffline behavior (staying on trails, being sensitive to soils impacts, etc. ) and the bases/staging areas are hardened proactively (prepared for the masses) cliffs can go for long periods of time remaining relatively unchanged. With the right approach and measures taken that require very little energy relative to the benefit received over the life of a cliff (many human lifetimes?) cliffs can weather climber traffic fine.
Back to PW, the base there is essentially a bench of rock. The impacts are finite and very managable. If Francis had an open mind and wasn't so preducied against climbers for what he perceives their attended impact to be PW could easily be opened back up to the financial benefit of the State Park.
I do give him props for being a zealot. Got to respect someone so wedded to their views that they are unable to have a reasonable discussion.
Climbers can be educated to do the right thing. If informed of the correct cliffline behavior (staying on trails, being sensitive to soils impacts, etc. ) and the bases/staging areas are hardened proactively (prepared for the masses) cliffs can go for long periods of time remaining relatively unchanged. With the right approach and measures taken that require very little energy relative to the benefit received over the life of a cliff (many human lifetimes?) cliffs can weather climber traffic fine.
Back to PW, the base there is essentially a bench of rock. The impacts are finite and very managable. If Francis had an open mind and wasn't so preducied against climbers for what he perceives their attended impact to be PW could easily be opened back up to the financial benefit of the State Park.
I do give him props for being a zealot. Got to respect someone so wedded to their views that they are unable to have a reasonable discussion.
"It really is all good ! My thinking only occasionally calls it differently..."
Normie
Normie
I agree that cliff line impact is pretty severe in many areas. But climbers do work to minimize the effects and are educating ourselves on how to be more careful. That being said, Wilson Francis based his opinions primarily on the impact to the rock and only tangentially on cliff line impact. In fact, when the state shut down rock climbing, there was no where NEAR the traffic that there is now. His article, upon which this closure was based, primarily discusses the effect of rock climbing on plant and species located high on the cliff line. With the hundreds of miles of unclimbable rock on Forest Service and State property (which info. I get through listening to experienced climbers and bolters 'cause I have no personal knowledge of this) this argument serves solely to BAN humans from the cliff line. Those species are not threatened by us. They will live at other cliffs.
If you really want to help cliff-line impact...bury your poop and pee away from the cliff line. Military smells like a fucking sewer.
If you really want to help cliff-line impact...bury your poop and pee away from the cliff line. Military smells like a fucking sewer.
Jesus only knows that she tries too hard. She's only trying to keep the sky from falling.
-Everlast
-Everlast
ok so the lurkist suggests that we climbers can prevent any major cliff line damage with the proper preperations, then we would stay within the means of acceptable change.
But if he is not correct than the only answer is to NOT climb...I mean Muao Dib and Charlie both state that we have major impact, so the only anwser is that statement is for us to quit climbing in those areas.
Obviously we are not going to quit climbing but if we agree with Wilson then that is the only responsible thing to do.
I need real facts and real evidence..prove to me that my climbing has permanent damage to the cliff line ecology!
then prove to me the climbers are the only user groups that damage the cliff line.
But if he is not correct than the only answer is to NOT climb...I mean Muao Dib and Charlie both state that we have major impact, so the only anwser is that statement is for us to quit climbing in those areas.
Obviously we are not going to quit climbing but if we agree with Wilson then that is the only responsible thing to do.
I need real facts and real evidence..prove to me that my climbing has permanent damage to the cliff line ecology!
then prove to me the climbers are the only user groups that damage the cliff line.
"Climbing is the spice, not the meal." ~ Lurkist
I agree 100%. Nothing makes me more angry than seeing someones' TP sitting on top of the ground behind a boulderSpragwa wrote:If you really want to help cliff-line impact...bury your poop and pee away from the cliff line. Military smells like a fucking sewer.
Then to make things worse there are those people, who piss in caves / recesses in the cliff line, or near the cliff. We all know that the cliffs here are steep and that the rain never hits the area close to the rock, thus helping flush away the waste. This is an even bigger problem out West where the environment is not as wet. The cave to the right of the Arena Wall is a great example of where NOT to piss. This applies to climbers and non climbers alike...as I see both user groups NOT THINKING..when it comes to this common sense...
BURY YOUR POOP, PEE IN THE WOODS, and DON"T LEAVE TRASH OF ANY KIND!
Have a good weekend, it's gonna be nice out
Lest we all forget... climbing is a mostly meaningless pursuit that we do for fun.
rhunt,
why you being so blind brah? I love it how we throw responsibility on these ther nefarious and evil user groups, when the reality of the story is....climbers make up 95% of those at teh base of these cliffs. we know it is true....on any given day we might see 3-4 "hikers", and 65 climbers at roadside....denying the obvious is not a solution....
here is my take...yes, I am to blame for the erosion, so I would like to start a voluntary cliff rotation. Out of the 30 or so major crags at the Red, I propose that we climbers consider a voluntary closure of 3 crags each year. Example, in 2004 we should not climb at Military, Left Flank, and the Lode. Everyone should then volunteer a full weekend to manual labor, to picking up TP, helping with erosion, and the like....
every year three different cliffs will be singled out for a voluntary closure and for rehabbing...this does not have to go to any authority..as climbers, we police oursleves on this one, and give back in a big way....
I was thinking last week...I haven't even died by not getting to send thirsting skull before the closure, and if it never opens back up, i can bet you that I will actually survive. Climbing is not a god given right..we just act like it is.... 8)
why you being so blind brah? I love it how we throw responsibility on these ther nefarious and evil user groups, when the reality of the story is....climbers make up 95% of those at teh base of these cliffs. we know it is true....on any given day we might see 3-4 "hikers", and 65 climbers at roadside....denying the obvious is not a solution....
here is my take...yes, I am to blame for the erosion, so I would like to start a voluntary cliff rotation. Out of the 30 or so major crags at the Red, I propose that we climbers consider a voluntary closure of 3 crags each year. Example, in 2004 we should not climb at Military, Left Flank, and the Lode. Everyone should then volunteer a full weekend to manual labor, to picking up TP, helping with erosion, and the like....
every year three different cliffs will be singled out for a voluntary closure and for rehabbing...this does not have to go to any authority..as climbers, we police oursleves on this one, and give back in a big way....
I was thinking last week...I haven't even died by not getting to send thirsting skull before the closure, and if it never opens back up, i can bet you that I will actually survive. Climbing is not a god given right..we just act like it is.... 8)
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.