Are you gay?

[tomdarch]

I was hoping to let this fade, but given that you've addressed me specifically, I'll respond directly.

I used to have respect for Tom. You have made some horrific statements that I find deeply offensive and untrue (re:unfounded).

It would be helpful to know which specific statements you are referring to and exactly what bothers you about them. I really hope that mentioning the mere possibility that the historical Jesus MIGHT have been gay wouldn't be offensive. Is that what you mean by 'horrific'? Is it 'horrific' to point out that Revelations sounds like the rantings of a schizophrenic? Nothing would stop God from speaking through a schizophrenic, of course. But it is important to point out elements of texts that undercut the claims of authority that certain people make based on them. (Think Rushdie's "Satanic Verses" vis a vis the Koran) I think you're engaging in a fair amount of rhetorical excess here. (But then, this is the flame forum, so carry on!)

It seems that anyone who says anything about gays is immediately bashed by the anti-anti group. Which seems to be the largest majority of the posters here. What about the people of faith who post here. You all seem to have no problem at all bashing Christians.(Don't even confuse yourself that the hateful statements made by 'spraydog' are even remotely held by Christians.)

Is it surprising that anti-gay statements are criticized? Anti-gay statements are equivalent to anti-black statements. Who would be surprised that a KKK member would be 'shouted down'? Being a racist is wrong and societal pressure is a big part of how humanity protects itself. Homophobia is beginning to be treated similarly.

Again with the rhetorical excess. Christians are not being 'bashed' here. I am certainly being critical of homophobes who try to hide behind Christian scripture. Remember that during the Civil War, conservative Christians said that the bible supported slavery. Even after the war, conservative Christians quoted scripture to defend American apartheid and segregation. ("Children of Cain" anyone?) How about the ultimate irony of Christianity-based anti-semitism? (Jesus may have been gay or straight, but he was certainly Jewish) Today, certain conservative Christians try to use the bible to put down gays. Is that bad? Yes. Is it 'bashing Christians' to point that out? No. After all, many Christians are leaders in gaining the recognition of equal rights for gays and some Christian churches have renewed the tradition of celebrating gay marriages.

I'm not going to argue with you about this at all. There is no arguing. You have taken liberties with scripture that are very offensive to me. You did this to your amusement, not because you wanted to have a serious discussion on scripture. Just to twist scripture to get your own meaning and hatefulness out of it. Youre smarter than this Tom. I am very disappointed in your lack of sensitivity.

If you really didn't want to discuss this, you wouldn't have posted, let alone such an extensive posting.

Insensitive? I'm totally insensitive to the feelings of racists who try to use Christianity to defend their bigotry. Why should I treat homophobia any differently? One of the best protests ever against a KKK march was mile upon mile of people mooning them. Mockery and sarcasm can be powerful tools. And they can be amusing at the same time. It took a lot of hurt feelings to get to the point where black and white people who love each other could gain the legal advantages of being legally married in the US. It's going to take more hurt feelings as things continue to get better. Is the sarcasm a sign of hate? I certainly don't think so, and I certainly didn't intend it that way.

Perhaps this is an issue that should be tiptoed around? But then, people are attacked and murdered with some frequency - Matt Shepard's murder was a cause celebre, but wasn't a rare enough event. Also, the suicide rate among gay teenagers is way too high compared with the general population. Sadly, "Christian-based" homophobia plays some role in both of these. When Pat Robertson and Falwell go on national television and blame the September 11th attacks on gays and lesbians (among others), they knowingly create a tone that encourages hatred and provide justifications for violence:

The 700 Club, September 13, 2001:

Falwell: "I really believe that the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle ... I point the finger in their face, and say, "you helped this happen."

Robertson: "Well, I totally concur."

Germany in the thirties and Rowanda in the nineties were full of this sort of rhetoric. I wasn't that long ago that people were calling for putting gays in concentration camps to deal with HIV/AIDS.

I am sorry about hurt feelings, but, in the big picture, this stuff is more important than some baiting poll. I missed your posting that stood up and spoke out against the obvious spite behind the 'poll' at the top of this page. Huggybone tried to claim that the bible supports the idea that homosexuality is 'unnatural' and I 'stood up' and called him on it. A lot of dumb-assed homophobia gets thrown around on this board, and it seemed like it was long overdue to say something. I guess I'm sorry that it's 'offensive' that someone would point out how and why homophobia isn't a Christian value.

[ertbaby!!!]

Wow! This post really speaks to me on alot of levels. on the first most obvious level i get to quote a sweet movie.... " me? I'm only HALF gay.. but my partner here (garage climber), he LLLLLLLLLLOVES the cock!" Secondly i get to argue the dogma of religions. anybody who quotes scriptures is a freak'n idiot. its a story. dont include jesus in any of it.. cuz there is not ONE word written by his hand in that frigg'n book. and god you say? who says god had anything to do with it... crazy how if some guy scribbled a few words down and said "hey god told me to write this down" we dont question it, as long as it happened forever and a day ago. Homosexuality has been around for as long as history, so just deal with it man. Look at ANY of the large educated societies of yester year and you will not only find an overwhelming amout of homosexuality/bi-sexuality... but more importantly a complete understanding and support of it all. In the roman days men were instructed to have same sex relations in order to keep the number of virgins high. plato was known to take young boys as lovers and he is the father of modern thought. give our society a few more decades to grow up and religion a few more years to die out and i am sure we will once again see a paradise free from these vulgar differences.

[ertbaby!!!]

( and i am not saying that it is only a christian type thing to be homophobic, i just REALLY like argueing any value in organized religion. religion is much like an addictive drug, its necessary for some but only cuz they made it so.)
religion has spawned more war and caused more death than any and all diseases put together. (including AIDS)

[Huggybone]

Argue? Tom, just look it up. Arguing implies the use of logic, I simply wrote a passage that is in every english bible. One if then, no premises. you are reading WAY too far in.

[rhunt]

This is really stupid...find a religoius forum to debate these issues.

Can we get back to rock climbing

[spraydog]

You are absolutely right tomdarch. Homophobia is not a Christian value.

I think its funny that certain liberals will try to label someone homophobic every time someone speaks out against homosexual behavior. If I speak out against slavery am I to be labeled slavephobic as well? Do I have a fear of slavery? If I speak out against how I feel drug users are complicit with the suppliers they buy from because the money they spend on their drugs supports the criminal activities, such as murder, associated with that businesses am I druguserphobic as well? Why is it you think someone who apposes homosexual behavior as obviously deviant and unnatural has to have some kind of fear of homos? I don’t fear them. I have talked with several of them. I’ve sat and had a beer with them. But I don’t want to climb behind someone who is HIV positive, be he or she gay or straight, and be exposed to his or her blood.

The fact is that certain liberal and homosexual individuals try to discredit people who speak out against them by trying to make that person and their comments appear irrational. How about if I label you tomdarch. I’ll call you and anyone else who supports that behavior a disturbed homoamorosa.

I presented some straight facts, no pun intended, which no one can mount an affective argument against. You don’t like that because it’s an obvious threat to the acceptance of your lifestyle. If I’m wrong I’ll admit it. But you haven’t and cannot provided any support for that.

[Yasmeen]

But I don’t want to climb behind someone who is HIV positive, be he or she gay or straight, and be exposed to his or her blood.

Then don't.

If you think your request is so rational and well-founded, next time you're at the crag, why don't you start polling people who climbed before you:

"Hey, are you HIV positive? No? Thanks dude. Climbing!"

See how well-received that kind of behavior would be in the real world instead of trying to hide behind 4 usernames on an online forum. You think everyone who climbs at the Red reads the bullshit you post here?

[rhunt]

But I don’t want to climb behind someone who is HIV positive, be he or she gay or straight, and be exposed to his or her blood.

Spraydog, Is this your reason for starting this thread? If so, I would suggest you quit climbing, especially outside where the sharp rock tends to cut our fingers, knees and hands. If you must climb stick to the gyms, I've never seem blood on plastic holds, you'll be safe there.

Just looking out for your best interest...

[Yasmeen]

If you must climb stick to the gyms, I've never seem blood on plastic holds, you'll be safe there.

Nope, the holds at our gym have some blood on them. Looks like you're not safe anywhere, spraydog. Which is just as well, because I don't think anyone would want to climb with such a prick anyway.

[overhung]

Maybe we should all get thorough physicals before climbing at the Red. There are all sorts of blood-borne pathogens out there. Truth is... if you see blood... don't touch it. My take is simple, don't mistreat/label anyone. I try not to do that... if I like someone that's cool... if I don't, I don't associate with them.