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Yea, I'd agree with that. Onsiting trad is always more difficult. Doesn't take much brains to figure that one out (hanging out dicking around with gear).

if 5.8 trad is like 5.10 sport, is sychronicity like a 5.13 or so. no mention of crack technique only gear placements.

oh and harder than your husband is fucking hardcore and awesome. once i can do more than 4 pullups and can campus handjams i'll get back on it. good thinking with the preplaced hex dirt! although i still hurt from the backflip groin shot i took from the rope (ps overhead, handsfree heel jams blow kinda easy.)

To help me in evaluating this RRG ratings dilema I asked the Holy Edentate. First I compared spray on three-star Souders trad routes vs. Jarrard sport routes 5.10 and above. Much more TRing reported for the trad than the sport. Of course these are all classic routes, thus there is plenty of spray. The second search was very revealing. I compared spray on three-star Ellington trad routes vs. Hume sport routes 5.11 and above. No TRing and very little to no spray. Consult the Revered Edentate and draw your own conclusions.

I am an ardent believer that ratings should be based on moves, types of holds, steepness, needed physical strengths and not on pro. What is funny for me is that when sport climbing first appeared, I was more afraid to fall on bolts than on pro. This is because I had experienced falls on pro but not on bolts. As I did more sport climbing and experienced sport falls then this fear went away.

Somewhere I put together a word explanation of ratings. I don't know if I can find the file but if I do I'll post it.

My two cents:
The more trad you climb the less the gap feels in the rating. I use to think that 5.8 trad was as hard as an easy 10 sport but my more crack climbing skills I got the more I knew that the 5.8 trad was just as easy as a 5.8 sport. It has to do with how you train and what tricks you have in your "library of moves". Nothing to do with pro or the type of climbing.

deal with it, I think you're on to something here. Trad routes=gear routes and don't always include crack climbing.

Just because Trad may be harder to onsite doesn't necessarily mean that the grades between sport and trad differ much. They ARE both based on the same system. I think what screws up the whole arguement is a route like lizards dare. But this just goes to show harder may be better. This is the hardest 9 I have ever been on and it just happens to be the best single pitch of 5.9 I have ever been on.

I can agree with that.Sort of the Muscle shoals of Fortress.Maybe Lizards is so hard becoz it is one 5.9 move after another for several feet.