So that said...and having posted twice to this already......I'm done! <br>
Hope you find your answers J.H.
<br>a few Questions for the RRGCC
Sadly ccg, I don't think the real issue here is JH getting his questions answered or whether or not to join the CC.<br> What I see happening is someone just wanting a lot of attention... or someone so filled with anger this forum is just one other outlet for him to express it. <br>
So that said...and having posted twice to this already......I'm done! <br>
Hope you find your answers J.H. <br>
So that said...and having posted twice to this already......I'm done! <br>
Hope you find your answers J.H.
<br>"The journey is what matters. The summit is an arbitrary place to turn around.
-Heather MacDonald
-Heather MacDonald
-
Guest
So what about new routes? As someone who has bolted in the S/R. In the future am I going to have to run my route plans by a commitee? It doesn't concern me that the CC wants to keep track of who's doing what with what kind of hardware, safety being the issue there. But what other issues can decide who puts up a route. Is the CC just going to let the climbers decide what is a good or bad route. That's what they do now. Someone bolts a route, if people don't like it, then they don't climb it. Is the CC going to impose their ethics/aesthetics on what can and cannot be a route?
Come on guys quit trying to stifle JH’s educational process. He is obviously intelligent enough to research and answer many of these questions on his own. He posted this thread with a mandate to answer his question. Now 20 questions have been posted for JH to answer. Why should he answer? Because the climbing community deserves the right to know if JH has done his home work and has the ability to present and defend a solid debatable position And: is he passionate about his position. Or: is he just agitating for the attention.
Oh..., I’ll give you the “benefit of the doubt” and go with idea that you are passionate about your belief, but uniformed. But I believe that you need to do some homework. So answer the 20 questions above and then we will talk.
And just so you know, I plan to keep posting to this thread mandating answers (just as you did) until the climbing community “hangs your ass” or you become self enlightened.
Oh..., I’ll give you the “benefit of the doubt” and go with idea that you are passionate about your belief, but uniformed. But I believe that you need to do some homework. So answer the 20 questions above and then we will talk.
And just so you know, I plan to keep posting to this thread mandating answers (just as you did) until the climbing community “hangs your ass” or you become self enlightened.
Last edited by TrueNorth on Tue Sep 30, 2003 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You are so stuck on yourself that you can't even open your mind. Here let me say it again: If you do not like the rules that are imposed on climbing/camping in the Murry land, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO GO THERE! You are not entitled to shit. No one is. Not me, not anyone. You can climb in many other places. You can find another chunk of private land, get permission to climb there or buy it, and do as you please.
You still have not answered my question. Why should you (or anyone) be allowed to climb on the land the RRGCC owns? It is kinda a trick question, but the answer is in the links I gave out.
Wes
You still have not answered my question. Why should you (or anyone) be allowed to climb on the land the RRGCC owns? It is kinda a trick question, but the answer is in the links I gave out.
Wes
"There is no secret ingredient"
Po, the kung fu panda
Po, the kung fu panda
-
Guest
Mulva,
Read my questions. People have responded harshly to me all the while not answering my questions. I mean nothing malicious. The only time I respond harshly is when someone is harsh with me.
I'm not angry at the CC. I am upset with people who tell me to STFU. Who say that they are no longer my friend because I asked questions. If that sounds angry then so be it I can't help it when I am ostracized by a group of "friends", yeah, I may sound a little bitter there.
Other than that I am not angry, I just wish that everyone would quit being angry with me!
Read my questions. People have responded harshly to me all the while not answering my questions. I mean nothing malicious. The only time I respond harshly is when someone is harsh with me.
I'm not angry at the CC. I am upset with people who tell me to STFU. Who say that they are no longer my friend because I asked questions. If that sounds angry then so be it I can't help it when I am ostracized by a group of "friends", yeah, I may sound a little bitter there.
Other than that I am not angry, I just wish that everyone would quit being angry with me!
-
captain static
- Posts: 2438
- Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2002 6:05 pm
Before answering JH's very legitimate question, I would ask people to lay off him. I don't see anything wrong with any of his questions or why he should have to respond back to a bunch of questions.So what about new routes? As someone who has bolted in the S/R. In the future am I going to have to run my route plans by a commitee? It doesn't concern me that the CC wants to keep track of who's doing what with what kind of hardware, safety being the issue there. But what other issues can decide who puts up a route. Is the CC just going to let the climbers decide what is a good or bad route. That's what they do now. Someone bolts a route, if people don't like it, then they don't climb it. Is the CC going to impose their ethics/aesthetics on what can and cannot be a route?
Now, if and when climbers own the Big Sinkin', they will have the right to control activities on their land. One of the RRGCC's overarching goals is to have all climbing be "exemplary" whether on public or private land. Thus, if the organization is to follow its mission and goals, you can expect climbers within that organization to be making and enforcing decisions on new routes, including ethical and aesthetic aspects.
"Be responsible for your actions and sensitive to the concerns of other visitors and land managers. ... Your reward is the opportunity to climb in one of the most beautiful areas in this part of the country." John H. Bronaugh
-
captain static
- Posts: 2438
- Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2002 6:05 pm
Oh, and for JH and those putting him down, let's all show some respect:
Quoted from the RRGCC website under the Access tab.FACT: There is no affirmative right to recreate.
There are only limits and mandates on land managers as to "how to manage," which means those gatekeepers have to balance their decision-making between competing interests and resource protection.
Therefore, the RRGCC as a grassroots organization has made an affirmative decision to articulate for itself and others this unique approach to climbing activism, called the RRGCC Philosophy. Access to climbing is based upon decisions made by people about other people. The RRGCC believes that conflicts between climbers and these decision-makers is best resolved through conflict resolution techniques that emphasizes mutual respect and mutually beneficial solutions. The RRGCC believes that climbers are best served in their quest for access to climbing by practicing, among themselves, and towards all others, respect. The RRGCC as an organization will offer respect and expect to be treated in a respectful manner and in all things try to be part of the solution and never part of the problem.
"Be responsible for your actions and sensitive to the concerns of other visitors and land managers. ... Your reward is the opportunity to climb in one of the most beautiful areas in this part of the country." John H. Bronaugh
First, I want to thank everyone who provided information to J.H. questions while “people in the know” have been busy. The RRGCC is an all-volunteer organization, which means we volunteer our time after hours, while we are at home, while we are at work, on the weekend, etc., and there are no regular business hours. As Gretchen posted, the board of directors, other dedicated volunteers, and myself have been putting in full days lately and do not always have extra time to read and post, in addition to everything we are doing, to this forum.
Although we would love to be able to provide an “on demand” way to answer questions for everyone, we have prioritized the Coalition’s highest goal to focus on securing the opportunity to climb, first. For example, exhaustive meetings with the FS, doing extensive legal and scientific research, pursuing and securing the best legal rights for climbers to climb on private and state owned land, etc., much of what we are doing is termed “advocacy.” In other words, we are spending our limited time where it will do the most, long-term good regarding securing all of our climbing opportunities, first. The opportunity to climb is not secure and that is what we focused on before we lose our ability to climbing. We have not have the luxury of extra time to also provide all the information that could be made available. However, all RRGCC executive members and volunteers are dedicated to being as open, candid, forthright and informative as they possibly we can be given our limited time and resources. We are growing and are committed to continually expanding our services, including information and outreach. Recently, the first of what we plan will be a series of “RRGCC Fact Sheets” have been drafted and are in the final stages of editing before being widely distributed to the public.
That said…
“What is the land going to be used for?” Recreation. The “rules of use,” who, what, how, etc., will be set by the board of directors who are the policy makers for the organization, with recommendations from the executive director, then executed by the executive director and staff. The RRGCC also has the unique distinction of having an elected representative body, the Climbing Advisory Council, that the board of directors asks for, through the executive director, recommended guidelines for climber related activities i.e., Guidelines for New Route Development, which have already been written and are available from any CAC member or the RRGCC. The CAC are representatives of the larger climbing community and are charged with representing climber’s interests as a way to address and resolve climber concerns. The CAC’s recommendations are sent to the board for their approval as the formal policy makers for the organization and give to the executive director to execute.
So, the correct answer is, whatever the board of directors decide with input from the CAC. So far, the board and myself are proceeding on everyone’s first choice of making the Murray property as open as possible. However, certain restrictions, such as no hunting, tree cutting, etc., will undoubtedly be imposed. No final determination regarding what activities will be allowed has been made at this time, but openness is the goal, with reasonable restrictions based upon responsible action.
No, you do not have to pay to join. You can make in-kind donations of volunteer time. If you want to join by volunteering please be sure you let us know so we can “credit” you and make you a member.
The answer to camping is similar to the answer regarding, “What is the land going to be used for?” The “rules of use,” will be set by the board of directors who are the policy makers for the organization, at the recommendation of the executive director, with input from the CAC, executed by the executive director and staff. No final determination has been made at this time, but openness is the goal with reasonable restrictions based upon responsible action.
No, the RRGCC will not follow the same rules/restriction as the FS. The rules the FS imposes are based upon federal laws, Endangered Species Act, National Historic Preservation Act, the National Environmental Act, and several others that do not apply to private land. The RRGCC will be free to set reasonable rules for camping as any private landowner would.
Please note, the RRGCC does not officially own the land, yet. All climbers are guest of the Murray family. The RRGCC cannot and does not make any official claim to be able to set rules for the Murray property until the RRGCC actually owns the land.
Shannon
Although we would love to be able to provide an “on demand” way to answer questions for everyone, we have prioritized the Coalition’s highest goal to focus on securing the opportunity to climb, first. For example, exhaustive meetings with the FS, doing extensive legal and scientific research, pursuing and securing the best legal rights for climbers to climb on private and state owned land, etc., much of what we are doing is termed “advocacy.” In other words, we are spending our limited time where it will do the most, long-term good regarding securing all of our climbing opportunities, first. The opportunity to climb is not secure and that is what we focused on before we lose our ability to climbing. We have not have the luxury of extra time to also provide all the information that could be made available. However, all RRGCC executive members and volunteers are dedicated to being as open, candid, forthright and informative as they possibly we can be given our limited time and resources. We are growing and are committed to continually expanding our services, including information and outreach. Recently, the first of what we plan will be a series of “RRGCC Fact Sheets” have been drafted and are in the final stages of editing before being widely distributed to the public.
That said…
“What is the land going to be used for?” Recreation. The “rules of use,” who, what, how, etc., will be set by the board of directors who are the policy makers for the organization, with recommendations from the executive director, then executed by the executive director and staff. The RRGCC also has the unique distinction of having an elected representative body, the Climbing Advisory Council, that the board of directors asks for, through the executive director, recommended guidelines for climber related activities i.e., Guidelines for New Route Development, which have already been written and are available from any CAC member or the RRGCC. The CAC are representatives of the larger climbing community and are charged with representing climber’s interests as a way to address and resolve climber concerns. The CAC’s recommendations are sent to the board for their approval as the formal policy makers for the organization and give to the executive director to execute.
So, the correct answer is, whatever the board of directors decide with input from the CAC. So far, the board and myself are proceeding on everyone’s first choice of making the Murray property as open as possible. However, certain restrictions, such as no hunting, tree cutting, etc., will undoubtedly be imposed. No final determination regarding what activities will be allowed has been made at this time, but openness is the goal, with reasonable restrictions based upon responsible action.
No, you do not have to pay to join. You can make in-kind donations of volunteer time. If you want to join by volunteering please be sure you let us know so we can “credit” you and make you a member.
The answer to camping is similar to the answer regarding, “What is the land going to be used for?” The “rules of use,” will be set by the board of directors who are the policy makers for the organization, at the recommendation of the executive director, with input from the CAC, executed by the executive director and staff. No final determination has been made at this time, but openness is the goal with reasonable restrictions based upon responsible action.
No, the RRGCC will not follow the same rules/restriction as the FS. The rules the FS imposes are based upon federal laws, Endangered Species Act, National Historic Preservation Act, the National Environmental Act, and several others that do not apply to private land. The RRGCC will be free to set reasonable rules for camping as any private landowner would.
Please note, the RRGCC does not officially own the land, yet. All climbers are guest of the Murray family. The RRGCC cannot and does not make any official claim to be able to set rules for the Murray property until the RRGCC actually owns the land.
Shannon