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So what would happen if the locking part were to fail on the Click-up? What's the "disaster recovery" plan?

Also, this is what we recorded yesterday on the SUM and this is for SUM users to check their device. This doesn't provide a 100% answer on what happen or why after 1.5 years, this device does this (new SUMs do have tighter cams), but does raise questions.

What I also know about the device is that 1. The belayer did have his brake hand on the rope as verified by someone else who saw it. 2. In the jerk tests, the device failed to engage the cam when held in hand. 3. Cam did engage with hand on rope. I've raised the possibility of the device being loaded backwards, but I'm not sure if that is possible with the SUM without it feeling considerably awkward.

Real testing is needed, obviously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gczsrz1wkmo

Meadows wrote:So what would happen if the locking part were to fail on the Click-up? What's the "disaster recovery" plan?

Steph, the clickup is an ATC. It is as simple as that. It used in the very same way an ATC is used to pay out slack and to take in slack. The only differences are:
1) it locks like the grigri, cinch or the sum, but with no internally moving parts.
It is interesting the way the clickup wears. All the wear is on the biner. I have dug a groove into an HMS biner with 1.5 years of use and replaced it. To optimize marketing they may have designed it too well.
2) it can be loaded the other way around, in which case it will be only an ATC.
The clickup will always at the very least function as an ATC no matter what. It is a basket device that slips into a locking position.
The rope never flies through the device unimpeded.

Back when I was a grigri user I would tell my climber, "you are the climber I am hand" and I would show them that the device as currently configured locks off." My SOP with the clickup is exactly the same with the same verbiage.

BTW: I will still belay with a grigri. I did a few weeks ago--somebody else was using my clickup. The extra movements that I had to do to work the device safely reminded me why I switched.

I think what you are asking is what would it take for the clickup to fail? You would have to grease your braking hand and hold the rope at shoulder height or above. Think about it. This is what it would take for an ATC to allow the rope to pass very quickly. I think the clickup would catch it you did not grease your hand. If the rope is unattended and it is hanging below the device, the clickup will engage upon a fall. If the rope is ABOVE the device and allowed to feed very straight such that the natural serpentine action of a falling rope does not bind against the device and engage it, the clickup would indeed let a climber DECK! In full realization of the danger zone of the device, I always put the rope at my feet.

Could one hang on hard to the climber's end to prevent the clickup from engaging as the lore would have us believe is possible for the Grigri? I am not sure. I kind of doubt it, but it wold not shock me too much if someone achieved the perfect set of parameters to allow this to happen.

Meadows wrote:Also, this is what we recorded yesterday on the SUM and this is for SUM users to check their device. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gczsrz1wkmo

Pinching an apparently sound device can cause it to malfunction . . . hopefully you realize that this evidence is damning. The major feature that attracted me to the ATC and the Clickup was no moving parts--simplicity. For the same reason I would opt to fall on a nut versus a cam ceteris paribus.

caribe wrote: The major feature that attracted me to the ATC and the Clickup was no moving parts--simplicity. For the same reason I would opt to fall on a nut versus a cam ceteris paribus.

The problem for me on the ATC was the extra work to belay a heavier person and the inability to feed slack fast enough.

Watching the click-up video, it looked challenging to deliver slack - which could present a problem on certain routes, especially those at Darkside.

caribe wrote: hopefully you realize that this evidence is damning. The major feature that attracted me to the ATC and the Clickup was no moving parts--simplicity. For the same reason I would opt to fall on a nut versus a cam ceteris paribus.

Of course, I am aware of that, especially to those who are not SUM users.

Meadows wrote:The problem for me on the ATC was the extra work to belay a heavier person and the inability to feed slack fast enough. Watching the click-up video, it looked challenging to deliver slack - which could present a problem on certain routes, especially those at Darkside.

♥ Feeding out slack fast enough at the Darkside . . . I smell red herring. What about that time feeding out slack . . . at Band Camp? You can't feed slack out fast enough with an ATC? WTF?? If you can't belay with an ATC, the Clickup is not for you. You need a device that you can open up and let her pour Eleanor Bicuspidor.
• I have actually not found a device that I can't use. The Grigri had a long learning curve before I felt comfortable with it.
♥ Belaying the heavies with a clickup is as easy as with any locking device.
♥♥ You are going to make me make a video aren't you.

Meadows wrote: I am aware of that, especially to those who are not SUM users.

OK . . . I will bite. Why isn't this a worry (or as much of a deal breaker) for the Sum user?

There needs to be more women in these instructional videos because clearly, no one is watching them as it is.

caribe wrote:

Meadows wrote:Also, this is what we recorded yesterday on the SUM and this is for SUM users to check their device. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gczsrz1wkmo

Pinching an apparently sound device can cause it to malfunction . . . hopefully you realize that this evidence is damning. The major feature that attracted me to the ATC and the Clickup was no moving parts--simplicity. For the same reason I would opt to fall on a nut versus a cam ceteris paribus.

There aren't many photos/videos on the web of the device in an arresting position, and I am not familiar with the workings of a SUM. On a gri-gri, lack of the plastic lever going up would produce a problem with lowering, not with catching. Is this not true for the SUM?

Edit: Okay, also, was his brake hand on the rope or on the device, pinching it as shown in this video. If it was on the rope, I don't see how he could realistically be pinching the device as shown in the video, which is the mode of failure the video (and your other video on your youtube account) suggest. I do not count thumb and forefinger around the rope as "brake hand on the rope." A grip, in my opinion, only qualifies for that distinction if you'd feel comfortable catching someone on an ATC with the same grip.

2nd Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho_ZdnlBTEQ

Another video on your account. Seems like a terrifying device in my opinion.

How has nobody ever seen this??????????