defy the laws deserves three stars

[Wes]

Um, one thing I think that you all are forgeting: There are and have been more then one guidebook to the red. Check out Poters and Synd's guide. Different stars and ratings. So, while the 2nd edition is a nice starting point, it doesn't have to be held as the law of the land. Personly, I have had many disagreements with the stars in the 2nd edition, as John may value things like top outs over rock quality, where I don't care about top outs, I just want good rock. In a lot of ways, this is our guidebook, we should feel free to change whatever it is we would like. Of course, Ray is the man with the final say and some people should have more imput then others, but it is a super cool community type thing. So, talk to people, have polls, climb the routes and change it to what feels right. And if you aren't sure, just ask the Rat.

I kinda feel like defy is a 2.5 star out of 3. On a 5 star scale it would get 4.

I think one of the NRG books uses 5 stars, and I like that idea as well.

Wes

[Wes]

So, are you saying that you would rather have the ethics of Whitesides in the red? Chop the 5.10 wall at roadside, and do them all on tri cams? The things you are calling ethics are bad habits of uninformed people. You see many of the same things at popular crags everywhere. Go to sinks, wild iris, Owens, Sand rock, rummney, NRG, etc. The red is super popular, just like climbing. Deal with it. Go climb obscure shit, or even better, spend some time securing access to some private property, then you can bolt your own routes as you see fit, and keep the "undesirables" out.

The feel is what you make of it, not what others impose on you. No one is forcing you to climb at the red. If you don't like it, go somewhere else.

Wes

Ok,
Bear with me on this.
Why do the folks in south, ie Tn-NC, like the RRG so much?
Because it keeps all the northerners out of their backyard and in the Red. Fact.
Now most areas in Tn, and almost every area in NC have some nice staunch ethics.
If you don't like them (ethics), then stay home. That's what they say down there.
The Red, being where it is geographicly, draws a huge number of climbers and that number increases every year.
With the large number of climbers frequenting from many diferent areas of the mid-west, the RRG's "ethics" have faded away and are not so clear anymore. I see it all the time and so do you....whether it's large groups, dis-respectful people, destructing property, tramping vegetation, top-roping through anchors, etc...
I'm not sure if it's too late to reverse this, but I can't see where changing grades of routes, quality ratings, etc. through the internet can be of any benifit to the "ethics" of the RRG.
Kinda takes away the area "feel", if you know what I mean.
Then again, maybe it's already too late for that.

Just my opinion.


[idea thrown out to see where it might stick]

[tomdarch]

As usual, Wes says smart things. (albeit a tad obnoxiously )

I'll take this opportunity to say (again?) that I think that they way that the word 'ethics' is used in climbing seems to me to be an abuse of the word. 'Ethics' generally connotes a moral element, which I don't think is really the issue here. Opposing chipping and drilling is 'ethics' because it permanently damages the rock and takes away from future climbers. In contrast, a lot of the things that people call 'ethics' are really style.

The Red is big enough to have rough approach, no-bolts wilderness crags AND drive-up sport parks. That distinction isn't an 'ethical' distinction, it's a difference of style.

By the way, I overheard a couple of people discussing John's star ratings for trad being summed up as 'the harder the gear placements, the more stars'. Hmmm?

[deal with it]

When you talk ethics it is like talking faith you can't do it because of a fundamentally different belief structure. Most people think that chipping is un ethical but what about bolting...like most things in life there is a fine line in which you must not cross in order not to get yelled at...but I disagree that the red is big enough to do anything I think that we should not cross the line to piss everyone off, bolting a crack will always be wrong in my book even if it is a at sport crag (Jackson Falls). on a related subject I happen to disagree greatly with many of the stars or lack there of given to routes but that doesn’t mean I am right....that just means I am different then the people who wrote the guidebook, you have to expect disagreements and don't get your panties in a bundle when you climb a three star that you think is a pile (Kampsite)...I lost where I was going with this but I hope you get the point

[Jeff]

Yeah, I overuse the word ethics because I can't come up with a single word to say what I mean.
Wes, "The things you are calling ethics are bad habits of uninformed people" is very true and that is more of what I am talking about.
As far as getting on me for "securing access on private property", "go somewhere else"....
[sarcasm] I am doing absolutly NOTHING to secure access on private property and I never have [end sarcasm].
Sorry, but I'm not going anywhere. Deal with it.

[SikMonkey]

The second would consists of the votes of people who have climbed it. They could rate it on a 5 star system and a script would just take the average of all the people who rated it. That would be sweet.

Kick ass! A lot of online retailers (Amazon.com, Mgear.com, Altrec.com) use that kind of voting system to rate their products. Also, when is the "beta" feature going to be finished and how is it going to work (no hurry, I am just curious).

Wes, you must have talked to a lot of magic Indians during your travels because you do have a bit of sage working for you. Most people are spending their lives looking for the fountain of youth when they should be asking Wes to guide them to the fountain of intelligence.

Mj

[SikMonkey]

Oh and P2U, the 5 star idea rocks too. It definitely gives you more room to work because there are routes whose quality definitely falls "between the stars".

Also, when you are quoting someone, how do you get it to say "So and So wrote" instead of just "quote"?

Mj

[Guest]

Wes, I have been meaning to cross reference Chris and Porter's guidebook and incorporate it into our online guide. Thanks for the reminder. I am sure I will post up on specific routes when I question the need to make a change. Since we all love a good brawl, maybe it'll keep us from chasing off new users. Stay tuned on that.

I disagree that stars are unneccessary. I think the star rating is important for many people. Maybe not local climbers so much, since we want to climb it all eventually, but out-of-towners and people new to the area appreciate knowing which routes they should break their necks to get on. I know I do when I travel. Beyond that, I don't really think 2 vs. 3 stars is a big deal. I like the idea of voting after we do a route, though, and getting a consensus over time.

So Merrick, I was serious about implementing the 5 star voting in the spray form. Can you do this for us? I don't have the skilz and I don't think Jack or Ray has the time right now. Let me know. And remember, be careful what you ask for or someone might just ask you to do it!

[Guest]

Like this.

Also, when you are quoting someone, how do you get it to say "So and So wrote" instead of just "quote"?

Mj

Heh. Use the "quote" button on the upper right hand corner of a person's post, or just use the tags as follows (but remove the spaces after the ['s):
[ quote="name of poster"]blather[ /quote]

[Wes]

Jeff, I am not talking about current crags on private properety, I am talking about new crags. Then you can have your own little corner of the world, where none of the evil fifo's can find you. See, when you post things compalaining about the masses, it just sounds like you are being selfish. You sound like a Boulder resident that has lived there for 4 years whining about all the "new" people. Does have a bunch of people at a crag bother me? It can. But I just have to remember that I made the choice to climb at a crowded crag. I can change that choice pretty easy.

Wes