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toad857 wrote:there's no such thing as practice. all of life is the real thing.

Tiger Woods practices. Everyone practices. Maybe everyone except Allen Iverson!!!! PRACTICE!!!Not a game!!We talk'in 'bout PRACTICE Man!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUYjD7A75HQ

so should the question be re-phrased...."can everyone climb at or near the current elite level of performance?" 15 years ago that was 14a...today 15a. 30 years ago 13a perhaps. again, it is fun to snuggle under your blankey at night and daydream about being a rock god.

take professional baseball players..these are all at the top of their game, but very few last more than 4-5 seasons in the majors, and even fewer will hit over .300 for a lifetime. again, the percentages are always present to form the pecking order of life. get used to it, and go have fun and quit being such number chasers. geesh, you remind me of that guy who always said you weren't a climber unless you climbed 12a all the time.

now, that being said, out of every single one of us bad ass big mouths on here who have postulated on the origins of the climbing universe, raise your hand if you have done even a single solitary 5.14.....just one...come on...anyone? session closed...now get back to padding your ticklist and dreaming of bigger things.

Wow I feel like there is so much to say on this one... Can anyone climb a 5.14? Yes (with the exception of the physically handicapped of course). It is just a matter of proper training, motivation, and time investment. What makes me think this... the gym I train at. The average climber at Hesters is a 513+ climbing well on their way to 5.14. Mutliple guys have climbed at least on 5.14. By all means this means that the population of this gym is all mutants by some of rationales of some of the commentors on this thread. However, what are the statistical probabilities that everyone in the gym is genetically gifted? My guess would be low. Instead I would like to think that it is a result of the atmosphere and style of training.

Further, I think that it is not fair to compare climbing to other sports. People keep comparing climbing at an elite level to running, golfing, etc... at an elite level. This is not fair to climbing. What I mean by that is that climbing and especially training for climbing is a very young activity. However, that is not true for golfing, running, etc... If you look at performance levels of these other sports there is not as dramatic of progression of the sport as we are seeing in climbing. That is because we are still figuring out how best to train for climbing and as a result we are still seeing rapid increases in the level of elite climbing. This leads me to think we are not at the peak of our physical limits of the sport, or we are just now nearing them, so our version of elite will be obsolete in a few years time. My guess is low level 5.14 will be a joke in 10 years as standards get pushed closer to a truly elite level that pushes the limits of the "gifted" human body.

There are two big thing I see in those who are climbing and progressing and will reach 5.14 and beyond. First of all they train intelligently (this does not mean overly structured). By this I mean they are constantly seeking challenges and identifying and working on their weaknesses. The other thing they have going for them is belief in themselves and their ability to improve. Based on this last point alone it is easy to see who on this thread will climb 5.14 and who will not.

So you're telling me there's a chance. Yea!!!

Wish i could roll my connective tissue back 10 years and start cranking at Hester's. There's no doubt you guys are doing the right thing.

kafish2 wrote:... What I mean by that is that climbing and especially training for climbing is a very young activity. However, that is not true for golfing, running, etc... If you look at performance levels of these other sports there is not as dramatic of progression of the sport as we are seeing in climbing. That is because we are still figuring out how best to train for climbing and as a result we are still seeing rapid increases in the level of elite climbing. This leads me to think we are not at the peak of our physical limits of the sport, or we are just now nearing them, so our version of elite will be obsolete in a few years time. My guess is low level 5.14 will be a joke in 10 years as standards get pushed closer to a truly elite level that pushes the limits of the "gifted" human body.

This is the variable that I was not sure where climbing standards today fit into the evolution of the sport. I was thinking about it more though, and comparing it back to gymnastics. What we have going on in most rock climbing gyms would be like a bunch of old people (by old I mean age 20 or more) running around the gym playing on the equipment 2 or 3 times a week for a couple of hours. The real gymnasts (those that have trained in a structured environment from age 5 and now spend 20-25 hours per week in the gym with a coach and a highly disciplined work out) would be laughing at the silly old people screwing around trying to learn how to do a back flip (climb 5.12).

So, going back to those same 50 kids and instead start training them in the rock gym with climbing/coaching experts with the same work out ethics as a high level gymnastics program, I would have to believe that most of them would be crushing 5.14 before they were 16.

kafish2, you have changed my mind. The problem is as SCIN says, we would have to roll back to the time clock for most of us to change up our training to hit that type of level. Of course there are genetic mutants that can do it with less, but just imagine where they would be if they had had that type of dedicated training since childhood.

SCIN wrote:So you're telling me there's a chance. Yea!!!

Wish i could roll my connective tissue back 10 years and start cranking at Hester's. There's no doubt you guys are doing the right thing.

If you didn't spend the first part of you climbing years talking shit to all of us sporties, you would have been crushing 514 easy!!!!!!!!!!!!!

climb2core wrote: So, going back to those same 50 kids and instead start training them in the rock gym with climbing/coaching experts with the same work out ethics as a high level gymnastics program, I would have to believe that most of them would be crushing 5.14 before they were 16.

kafish2, you have changed my mind. The problem is as SCIN says, we would have to roll back to the time clock for most of us to change up our training to hit that type of level. Of course there are genetic mutants that can do it with less, but just imagine where they would be if they had had that type of dedicated training since childhood.

I still think that 5.14 is possible for most people. Again, just going by my own experience. The majority of people in the gym I climb with started climbing in their 20's in a non-structured environment. Yet, they are still at the level or close to it that we are discussing. I do not think that lower level 5.14 climbing is significantly hard enough to prevent most people from being able to achieve it given the proper training, time investment, and mindset. That assuming no major injuries and or disabilities prevent them from training.

I think the scenario you speak of, kids traning in a structured way with serious time investment from a young age that continues thourgh adulthood will yeild much higher grades than 5.14. I think we are beginning to see that now. It seems like every major city has some young kid crushing 5.14's. It also seems that some of the most talented climbers in the world are kids... Look at the Euro climbing news for any number of 5.14+ climbing teenagers. I think these kids will usher in grades that we thought were not possible. The next step will be the anomolies, the genetically gifted, that also happen to get into climbing/training at a young age and they will set standards that are upheld for long periods of time. Similar to records in track/running and will actually be legends with sends that stand-out for more than a decade or so. Then I think whatever grade they are establishing we as average climbers/humans will fully be able to say are not genetically gifted enough to climb. That grade will not be 5.14-

There will be tons of 14 climbers just like there are tons of pro basketball players...but I'm pretty confident that 5.14 will NEVER be the norm for devoted climbers with day jobs.

Kafish
I agree with most of what you are saying, but without ever being at Hester's I suspect your group of 5.13+ and better climbers there are much more of a select group then you think, they may not physically appear to be mutants but the drive to continue to improve, the ability to analyze weaknesses and attack them (hardest part of that is letting your ego take a hit), and the fact that they are frequent visitors to a training center are just three of I suspect many qualities that set them apart from the norm, in fact I would even argue that just the people who are participating in this discussion are likely all well outside the norm and probably all capable of climbing 5.14 (the oldest of us less likely), if several of them that I know aren't climbing 5.14 within the next 5 years I would be surprised, a lot of you guys are forgetting about a high percentage of the other people who frequent the climbing gyms for years and are stuck at 5.9, 5.10, 5.11 seemingly forever

I agree with heavy on this one....

more importantly, I guess I was answering the question as it was written. not everyone can climb 5.14 no matter how hard they try...so you use the extremes to make the point and come in from there. could Shaq at 360 pounds, 40 years old and never climbed send a 5.14 with the proper training and nutrition, and mindset? I doubt many would take this bet.

while kyle is spot on the attitude is a huge part of success, it does not cover that last little bit of umph..I guess we are not asking if everyone will be an olympic gold medalist (5.15 and beyond), but only if anyone/everyone can make the olympic team (5.14). Perhaps 5.13 is being invited to try out for the team, and 5.12 is dreaming about being asked.

so one fall, is the question you are really asking is can everyone climb at the elite level of the sport, given the current parameters? no, because if they did then it would no longer be considered elite.

but if you are asking is the next level down more attainable than many/most think, then I waffle to a "perhaps".....

go back to Ian's example....I do not believe for a second that when you have 50 committed gymnasts in a room all training equally that they all have the same odds of being the gold medalist. they are already the cream that has risen to the top. and from that cream, only a few will be chosen.