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Artsay wrote:

Andrew wrote:The crowds are not going to go away, so what do we do as a community? I am not talking about just fixed draws, nor am I blaming any one person or group of people, but how do we as a climbing community safely manage the large amount of people. We have more parking, camping, and businesses catering to climbers than ever. How do we manage all of this?

I thought I was answering Andrew's question on things we can change to manage the surge in visitors?
I'll edit my post to say it's not 100% of the problem, I was wrong in saying that but I do think it's a significant factor.

It is not with in the the power or scope of the climbing community (nor should it be) to determine the business practices of Miguels or any other business in the Red for that matter... While it may contribute in some way to the overall crowds, it is not worth focusing on as we can do nothing to change this "problem" and it will only serve to piss off the people we want working with us. Dario may not let you climb at the Lode if you keep this up

Just hackin on ya Michelle.

Michelle, I do see your point, I honestly do. But as someone who has been in charge of not only myself, but a college group for quite a few years prior, we went to the Red because of its quality. Period. I know not every group is like this, but when Climbers from Orlando decide that they're going to make a trip, and it 8 hours to LRC, 11 hours to Foster's and 13 hours to the Red, we ALWAYS pick the Red because of it's quality. And quite frankly, we could care less if was$40 a night to camp. We finally get a chance to go climbing outside, we're going where we have real quality. And for our group price wasn't an issue because as a club organization, we had X amount of money to spend and what we didn't spend, we had to give back and then they wouldn't give us as much money the next year.
I think whatever we do to limit numbers will be futile. We just have to learn the best way to safely handles them.

Take the kiddies to the New, it's a way better climbing area.

Agreed the New is better(imo), three reasons people don't go there:

camping is limited, expensive and sucks
when it rains you're screwed
no common hang out scene like Miguel's - Roger's is close but not really..

Yeah, but the climbing is better quality on average, there's way fewer idiots, and Fayetteville kicks ass!

Rotarypwr345704 wrote:when Climbers from Orlando decide that they're going to make a trip, and it 8 hours to LRC, 11 hours to Foster's and 13 hours to the Red, we ALWAYS pick the Red because of it's quality.

I guess I dont get that point... You are passing other CLOSER and less CROWDED areas just to come to the red. Open your horizons, there are tons of awesome places in the south to climb just as good as the red. I don't understand such close minded people, but I guess thats why the red is so crowded cause everyone thinks its the only worthwhile place in the south to climb...

Agreed, the Red is maybe 3rd or even 4th among SE climbing areas in my book... unique for sure, but kind of a scene with lots of shitty routes and sand mixed in with the good stuff. Maybe I just live too close.

dustonian wrote:Yeah, but the climbing is better quality on average, there's way fewer idiots, and Fayetteville kicks ass!

competely agree!!
I live in Columbus, Ohio and for me the drive to the Red and the New are the same distance. But what kept me coming to the Red weekend after weekend was the easy of camping/lodging - I mostly stayed in campers at cliffview resort then Lago Linda's when Cliffview kicked us out. And I didn't have to worry that the rain would keep me from getting on my project.
Climbers are the red have no idea how lucky they are to be able to climb in the rain - very much not typical of a climbing area.

Yeah, the rainy day thing is a plus for sure in this climate. I suffered for years on the Yellow Wall during rain at the Gunks... what a pile!

i wish you guys luck on this propaganda campaign. the river itself is amazing but talking about gumby crowds at the old orange oswald or the mob at butchers or rico on rainy days?

the Red and eastern kentucky have something incredible to be proud of and (continue to) turn into a very special place.