Bolting question

Gaston? High Step? Drop Knee? Talk in here.
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Clevis Hitch
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Re: Bolting question

Post by Clevis Hitch »

pigsteak wrote:but do any of these apply to putting anchors in sandstone, where there seems to be so many variables..you move 12 inches and the stone changes dramatically. I could see a standard anchor perhaps. this year I am paying attention to bolts I ut in that get more moisture, and will be attempting to go stainless glue ins for those venues.

These companies have laboratories dedicated to answering all the questions that you have. If you looked at the videos I posted there was one of them pulling a glue in anchor out of stone. They were using a track hoe and it was having a hard time getting it out. They probably have test data for sandstone too.

The point is this. You don't know that stainless performs better than gavlanized or hilti glue ins perform better than simpson. Its just layman guesswork about any of this. We could find all of this stuff out if we co-operate. If not then its a bunch of individuals doing individual things that may or may not be adequete. You seem like you want to be proactive and put in good gear. It's the other guys who may put in bad gear and not know that they are doing it. Why couldn't we standardize?
If you give a man a match, he'll be warm for a minute. If you set him on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life!
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pigsteak
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Re: Bolting question

Post by pigsteak »

I just got some test results from Isaac about testing Rick Weber did on the new glue ins. Let me see if Isaac will post it here.
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.
dustonian
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Re: Bolting question

Post by dustonian »

Yep, from the numbers I saw, Joe has no leg to stand on spreading ugly rumors about "the other guys." I've been placing, load testing, and falling on glue-ins for many years in both climbing and rigging applications, and the numbers consistently come in the 8000-9000+ lb range for both shear and pull-out across a range of testing protocols and parameters. This is true for Wave, Titt, Petzl, or Fixe glue-in bolts combined with Hilti RE500 or 150 (I don't use Simpson after I got a defective tube from them 5 or 6 years ago). The additional advantages in longevity in an all SS system are obvious.

I really didn't want to engage in this idiotic back-and-forth, but when someone starts making spurious allegations you kind of have to. If you want to talk bolting it's best done in person. Done here, now let the henhouse gossip continue.
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Clevis Hitch
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Re: Bolting question

Post by Clevis Hitch »

spurious allegations...of what?

Maybe I'm not making myself understood. Maybe its that you want to fight so much that you aren't reading me correctly?

What I am saying is that there needs to be standards that are adopted by the community. A co-operative effort, instead of all of this. One guy uses this, one guy uses that, not for any particular reason, just cause it looked pretty. How about some hard science behind what is adopted. Don't read this as an attack on your work. Read this as there are people out there who may or may not be using good gear and that if we as a community adopt a set of standards then there won't be the potential for failure. You're system might be superior, maybe theres a better, cheaper way to get the best possible gear with the longest life-span possible for corbin sandstone.
If you give a man a match, he'll be warm for a minute. If you set him on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life!
dustonian
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Re: Bolting question

Post by dustonian »

No one here is really using glue-ins here except Isaac, myself, Jeff, occasionally Kipp & Hugh, and maybe you. I have no problem talking bolts with those guys and trading ideas/experience (in fact, we already do that, so I'm not sure what you're whining about with your allegations and collection of youtube videos). But you are high as a jaybird if you think I am going to attend a Hilti "training session" with you when I have a full time job, have already been using epoxy for years professionally, & know for a dead fact that the glue-ins I place are way more bomber than any expansion bolt on the market and last immeasurably longer.

BTW: Isaac was right--epoxy bonds only very weakly to stainless steel. Rick did some pull-testing on straight shaft (no perpendicular surface area) to confirm this. The pull out strength comes from a "casting" effect and the uber-bomber covalent bonding of epoxy to rock. This is why Fixe recommends "notching" the eyebolts and burying it in epoxy. See the link on this page if you have questions: http://fixeusa.com/glue-in_bolts.htm. Also it's a moot point that Hilti would say their product is not for a certain climbing application when that is true of ALL their products.
heacocis
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Re: Bolting question

Post by heacocis »

First, a couple of responses to Clevis: A) you are technically correct, and I therefore take back my previous claim, that some epoxies (including the ones we should use for route development) do bond to metal. However, the point that I was trying to make, and that I still stand by, is that epoxy does not bond to metal like it can to other surfaces. Metal like stainless steel is smooth, it only has microscopic pits in it. Therefore, there is very little for the glue to adhere ("bond") to. This is unlike rock, for example, where the glue actually seeps into the pores of the rock (much larger than the microscopic pits in steel), and therefore creates a substantially stronger bond. To be clear, I am not an engineer, but this is the information I collected this weekend from the person at Hilti customer service who specializes in their chemical anchoring systems, as well as a metallurgist. This makes sense. For example, remember all the metal route name tags in Muir that went missing? These were glued to the rock face, but because the glue couldn't substantially bond to the back of the tags people were able to pry them off with their fingers. Also, the fact that epoxy doesn't provide a substantial bond to metal is exactly why the UIAA requires "The embedded part of any rock anchor held in place by a chemical bonding agent shall have deformations or roughness, intended to prevent extraction or rotation (http://www.theuiaa.org/upload_area/cert ... h_2009.pdf)." B) I agree with you that some set of standards, or generally agreed upon practices, for development would be nice to have. But there are several problems in the real world with this: who gets to have the authority to create them, how is disagreement handled, how are they enforced, and so on. The reality is that rock climbing is a dangerous activity, and anyone who climbs on anyone else's gear (draws, bolts, anchors, etc.) is putting their blind trust in someone else. In my opinion, the flip side of that coin is that those of who develop routes should do so to the best of our ability, always with a mind to maximizing safety. Not all developers agree with this, and that is why there are several routes that I personally choose not to climb because I do not like how it was developed (bolt placement/spacing, for example). Make your own choice, or develop your own routes. Oh, and the UIAA does have some standards set forth for rock anchors (see the link posted above).

Second, there are people actually testing commonly used anchors, and making subsequent decisions about which gear to use based on those results. Around here, Rick Weber and Jim Taylor have done much in this realm. As Kipp mentioned, this last weekend, I did some testing of my bolts (the Wave bolts). The quick results are that I could not get the bolts to fail. We had to stop the shear strength (load was perpendicular to bolt) tests at just over 9000lbs due to testing equipment limitations. The straight pullout strength (load was in-line with bolt) test stopped because at just over 8000lbs the rock exploded taking the bolt with it. Another interesting test was a straight pullout test with no glue, which showed that the bolt could hold just over 1000lbs before pulling out.
Wave Bolt- the best climbing bolt available! www.wavebolt.com

"...I'm over all that macho stuff, and if I bolt a route, it will be done properly." - Colin Goodey
heacocis
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Re: Bolting question

Post by heacocis »

Clevis Hitch wrote:

... Cards passed out that said you were qualified. Its not that hard. ...
Oh, I forgot to ask: would you recommend we hang this card on our harness next to our lead climbing certification cards, or are you thinking more like a business card that we could hand out to people at Miguel's?
Wave Bolt- the best climbing bolt available! www.wavebolt.com

"...I'm over all that macho stuff, and if I bolt a route, it will be done properly." - Colin Goodey
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Clevis Hitch
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Re: Bolting question

Post by Clevis Hitch »

do you have a link to the wave bolt?

As far as the cards? How about an account set up at kwik-set in Lexington that would either give you access to a volume discount or gave you bolts outright because outside people could contribute money to the account.
If you give a man a match, he'll be warm for a minute. If you set him on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life!
ted
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Re: Bolting question

Post by ted »

ready for that spotter yet?
dustonian
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Re: Bolting question

Post by dustonian »

Now that he's talking free bolts I'm getting more interested.
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