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krampus wrote:ultimately, I fully believe everything that THB has claimed, I just don't think its relevant for real life situations, reducing the force on the gris gris by pulling on the climber side can and does happen, shamis' method of letting go does work 99.999 percent of the time but your break hand works 100% of the time and therefore that should be the method that is taught to noobs, anything else is silly and encourages a culture of laziness and pain, your whole life can change in the blink of an eye, why risk it.

If people were all being taught properly there wouldn't be a thread about this. People think they can belay on all devices if they are good with one. That has pretty much always been the case until the gri-gri. And people will continue to make that false assumption. If you know what you're doing you should hold the brake line...unfortunately most people think they know what they are doing until it's too late, and their instincts will kill the climber.

I've seen 3 gri-gri accidents. I've seen 3 pinched cams, and 3 burnt hands. It's always the same.

Until I see differently, all theories and principles of friction point to accidents as a result of the cam held down or threaded backward. I do know it is easy to pinch the cam and drop someone with a skinny rope. Those skinny ropes have very little friction to engage the cam and it doesn't take much force to hold the cam down to keep the cam from engaging (scary easy). On the contrary, I have seen someone holding down the cam, feeding slack and the climber fall unexpectedly with a fat 11mm rope. There was so much friction it pulled their hand up and the cam engaged. Had it been a skinny, it probably would have resulted in a dropped climber. When you get to 10.5mm and below there is not nearly as much friction. I can feed a skinny rope without ever holding the cam down to feed slack. I can't do that with an 11mm rope and have to hold the cam down to feed slack. The skinnier and slicker the rope, the easier it is to deck the lead climber

Shamis wrote:

krampus wrote:ultimately, I fully believe everything that THB has claimed, I just don't think its relevant for real life situations, reducing the force on the gris gris by pulling on the climber side can and does happen, shamis' method of letting go does work 99.999 percent of the time but your break hand works 100% of the time and therefore that should be the method that is taught to noobs, anything else is silly and encourages a culture of laziness and pain, your whole life can change in the blink of an eye, why risk it.

If people were all being taught properly there wouldn't be a thread about this. People think they can belay on all devices if they are good with one. That has pretty much always been the case until the gri-gri. And people will continue to make that false assumption. If you know what you're doing you should hold the brake line...unfortunately most people think they know what they are doing until it's too late, and their instincts will kill the climber.

I've seen 3 gri-gri accidents. I've seen 3 pinched cams, and 3 burnt hands. It's always the same.

So tell me why it is again that you teach the improper method instead of taking the time to teach it right?

Because I started this thread and because I'm a boringly anal engineer, it has been painful to resist jumping into the Gri-Gri analysis fray when the thread derailed.

First off - Francesco - Liz and I wish you a speedy recovery and hope to see you back here on the rocks in the future.

As for the Gri-Gri discussion...

Perhaps under certain circumstances a backup knot can pry open a Gri-Gri, but generally, it will do its job when needed. I watched a young lady practicing a pickoff for her AMGA SPI cert accidentally push on the handle of her Gri-Gri and quickly drop about 4 feet until her Gri-Gri hit her backup knot. Unfortunately, she grabbed the climber-side rope when she dropped, and, in just that short distance, burned her hand.

To avoid this, I'm surprised no one mentioned the Gri-Gri tie-off method shown in the photo here. Very quick and no slippage. Pull a loop through the biner, twist, and lasso the front of the Gri-Gri. Now, you are in hands-free mode.

And regarding the discussion of the probability of a rope slipping through the Gri-Gri under certain circumstances, there is one major factor in the "system analysis" that no one has mentioned here. And it helps to support why THB's claim is true. Anyone care to guess?

Bottom line, I think we all agree that nothing beats proper belaying.

Rick

i'm old, but i've never understood the skinny rope trend.

krampus wrote:So tell me why it is again that you teach the improper method instead of taking the time to teach it right?

I don't really teach people how to climb. If I happen to find myself at the crag with an inexperienced belayer, I typically will recommend that they let go. I'm afraid of hitting the ground, and I know there's a much lower chance if it happening that way. Even if I took 20 minutes to show them how to belay, and practice a little bit, they'd still be more likely to drop me than if they just let go.

I have also recommended letting go to my wife. She's an infrequent climber. Probably comes out like 4 times a year, never used an atc, hasn't done any serious routes, and will never be a serious climber (because she doesn't care about it). I tell her to let go...well I tell her to make sure she's not touching any metal, and if she finds herself with a hand on the gri-gri to let go. She uses the brake hand under normal circumstances, but she knows to let go if I fall while she's doing anything near the gri-gri. Again, I don't like hitting the ground.

I'm much more likely to die of ass cancer than the gri-gri failing to lock. Gri-gri's are definitely more likely to fail the skinnier you are though. When a 100 pound climber gently leans back you get the kind of slow pull effect that people are talking about, and that can lead to failure. But that doesn't happen on a real fall, and if it's not a real fall, then the belayer has plenty of time to pull in the slack an lock off the brake line.

Shamis wrote: I'm much more likely to die of ass cancer than the gri-gri failing to lock.

Human papilloma virus can indeed predispose you to squamous cell anorectal cancer... especially genotypes 16 and 17. Better get that checked out.

(On another note, it's printed right on the Grigri1 that they are designed for 10-11mm ropes. So the statistically frequent failures to lock without a brake hand on sub-10mm ropes should come as no surprise to anyone that knows how to read. Holding down the cam doesn't help the situation much either. Bottom line: choose your belayers very wisely and don't be afraid to bust balls if they do something you don't like. I do it even with my most trusted & experienced climbing partners... they love it.)

weber wrote:regarding the discussion of the probability of a rope slipping through the Gri-Gri under certain circumstances, there is one major factor in the "system analysis" that no one has mentioned here. And it helps to support why THB's claim is true. Anyone care to guess? [/attachment]

THB made a few claims. What is on your mind Rick?

caribe wrote:

weber wrote:regarding the discussion of the probability of a rope slipping through the Gri-Gri under certain circumstances, there is one major factor in the "system analysis" that no one has mentioned here. And it helps to support why THB's claim is true. Anyone care to guess? [/attachment]

THB made a few claims. What is on your mind Rick?

the wearing of the camming unit..?

Rope diameter. And HPV genotype.