steep4me wrote:My primary emphasis was to address the people who have held onto the cam instead of the brake and allowed climbers to deck this way. I have seen it 4 times and know of countless other instances.
And to this point....why use a GriGri at all. How many times have you seen a climber deck while being belayed with a non-auto-locking belay device? I mean it seems crazy to me that after seeing 4 people dropped because of accidentally holding the cam down that you would continue to use those belay devices. Why?
Isn't time that we as a climbing community just conclude that auto-locking belay devices are not as safe as we thought were....or at the very least not safer than non-auto-locking belay devices.
steep4me wrote:My primary emphasis was to address the people who have held onto the cam instead of the brake and allowed climbers to deck this way. I have seen it 4 times and know of countless other instances.
And to this point....why use a GriGri at all. How many times have you seen a climber deck while being belayed with a non-auto-locking belay device? I mean it seems crazy to me that after seeing 4 people dropped because of accidentally holding the cam down that you would continue to use those belay devices. Why?
Isn't time that we as a climbing community just conclude that auto-locking belay devices are not as safe as we thought were....or at the very least not safer than non-auto-locking belay devices.
I see the grigri as a great tool; functional, adaptable for my purposes, reliable and safe in properly trained hands.
"4 people dropped because of..." operator error (I think we can agree on that, right?); not the design or function of the device. That's like saying we should stop using cars because someone held their foot down on the accelerator and wrecked. They were using it incorrectly.
I think the community change should be that vigilance, proper instruction and training with ANY belay device is critical, that ALL your climbing techniques and training should constantly be questioned and evaluated on a regular basis, and that despite our best efforts, this is a dangerous practice with very real and possibly tragic consequences.
'I' get that an auto-locking belay device is safe for the properly trained hands, I used one for 15 years and NEVER saw anyone dropped while using one(never saw anyone dropped period) but a grigri is placed in a newbies hands all the time. Plus my point is that properly trained hands are some of the ones holding the cam down - it can happen to anyone. Using a figure 8 repel device to belay was all the rage back in the late 80's and early 90's but people figured out that it wasn't safe and stopped using the 8 that way. I feel auto-lockers should be discouraged period.
But I guess all things considered it goes back to climbing being dangerous.
"a grigri is placed in a newbies hands all the time" - I think in this case, there is a great deal of teaching and practice that is not being done. Not a flaw with the design or function of a device, but how it's taught and used.
"Plus my point is that properly trained hands are some of the ones holding the cam down" - I have seen several techniques for this; some are what I feel to be safe and effective; others are downright scary (see: hand off the brake end while actively belaying!). I think this is the debate the community should be having with this particular device; what is the safest, most effective way to play out slack while disengaging the autolocking cam temporarily that does not compromise the safety of the system? Is it the "official" Petzl approach? Or some other hybrid approach? Also, what played into the drops? Inattentiveness? Faulty technique? Those could compromise any belay device.
I hear what you're saying... I just think that instead of discouraging the use of one device, the discussion should center on what safe techniques, attitudes and teaching can be encouraged... but this is a great conversation. Hope to hear from others as well.
For my own curiosity, what made the figure 8 unsafe to use in belaying?
The 8 just doesn't lock off the rope like a normal stitch-plate device does.
pigsteak - thanks but I must warn you...I am working on becoming an old crusty 5.9 and under trad/gear climber so don't ask me to belay you on your latest proj unless there is some chossy trad/gear route nearby.
I've known of people to get dropped on an ATC. The population for climbing is considerably higher so failure rate is going to increase. We can't safeguard those people just like we can't stop people from texting and driving.
Here are to rules of belaying that have been around since the hip belay:
1. Brake hand never leaves the rope while on belay.
2. Exchange of brake hand to move rope must happen in the breaking plane.
These rules if broken are incorrect belay methods. The only devices that don't fall into this category are the plaquette devices. These are considered auto locking and maintaining a break hand is not needed. These devices also take a much more experienced belayer than that of any other type of device.
