RRC Archives

I think everyone is dancing around a basic truth of climbing...

There are two sides to rock climbing: climbing and risk management.

People with any sense would obviously try and develop their skills on both sides. This might involve the use of a stick clip, or it might mean training in a gym until you can onsight 5.13 at the World Cup, then going outside and getting on stuff way below that level. Even the legendary free soloists often have rules like "Never make a move you can't reverse," or "Always have three points on." In such a case, I'd say they are exercising even better risk management than someone who climbs a sport route with hard moves at their limit below a high first bolt with no stick clip.

I've fallen at the second bolt of a climb before, and the only thing that kept me from grounding was the height of the first bolt. After that, high first bolts have always seemed like a great idea to me.

davyanderson wrote: There are two sides to rock climbing: climbing and risk management.

I've fallen at the second bolt of a climb before, and the only thing that kept me from grounding was the height of the first bolt. After that, high first bolts have always seemed like a great idea to me.

Well said.

This thread is like so duh! If the first bolt is too low it won't do you any good if you peel off at the second! That's why they put it that high! Use a stickclip or don't but don't complain about bolt placements that have served well for many years. Add a bolt? I don't think soooo!

just climb, and climb safe.

anticlmber wrote:land shark

Hee Hee. Dirt Dart.

So adding a bolt is out. Good. But how many of you climbed that route knowing what the ledge was like because someone told you? How many of you stick clip regardless? I know many of you can raise your hand for one or both. The actual route starts on a ledge where the slime/dampness of the first foothold cannot be assessed from the ground.

The point of the thread is not to determine whether we should add bolt, but what we can do to help others and ourselves do risk management. Remember how gumby you all were when you started until guided by the right people? The point is to throw out options and if JR's mentality wins, please remove all R/X ratings from the guidebook. And comparing the possibility of broken bones and a concussion to a bruised ego or strained finger is the apples-oranges fallacy. In other words, dumb.

The route has an R/X start in my opinion and I bet that is the opinion of Dru and Ed Mank - two people who took that tumble (Ed broke some bones too). There's no harm in letting people know and if they eschew your advice, then you win "Told You So" rights. Please reserve that post-physical therapy.

Spragwa wrote:

jordancolburn wrote:

lena_chita wrote: Putting another bolt below the current first one (something that would be reach-able from a good stance on the ledge) would sure make it easier to start this route without a stick-clip. The first bolt is really high up right now, so not even every stick clip can reach it. TROCS is a popular route in a popular location, and making it safer sounds appealing.

Well, there is usally a reason first bolts are so high, if a low bolt is placed, the slack taken out while clipping the second could easily risk a ground fall. I'm sure there are careful placements that can help this, but high first bolts aren't usually place so high just cause the bolter feels like it.

I want to ditto this remark. Has anyone assessed the potential fall if a lower bolt were fixed? What if someone fell with a stick clipped bolt and a bolt blew? Fixed bolts are left gear.

First of all, I want to point out that my post was quoted selectively. I DO NOT think that the bolt needs to be added to TROCS.

BUT-- I also believe that adding a bolt below the first one, something that would be accessible from the ledge with one step up, while keeping the current first bolt, WOULD make it safer and would not cause a bad fall scenario that some poeple are bringing up.

When I say 'safer' I mean that I, personally, am not currently willing to climb TROCS without having the first bolt clipped with bolting being the way it is right now, but I would have been willing to climb it without a stick clip if there were another bolt added below first. It is not the same as saying that there has to be a bolt added.

bless your hear Dru, but gawdamit son, learn how to write.

clif wrote:bless your hear Dru, but gawdamit son, learn how to write.

Quoted before it is fixed.