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On top of all of this, I bet Joe never told anyone he and Brad Weaver were the ones removing my draws from the route, what is up with that???

I need to correct this statement to leave Brad's name out of it, i have talked to him directly and he was not the one who took my draws as i had been informed. This proves you just can't trust someone's word and start talking crap... i am sorry Brad.[/quote]

Nice spray kipp.

512OW wrote:......I echo Piggies question... where will the RRGCC stand on this?

Personally, I'm with Rib.....

mcrib wrote:There is only one opinion that should matter here and that is Hugh's.

I haven't spoken to anyone else on the BOD about this, mostly because the fact that this is our problem is total bullshit. In fact, the whole situation is bullshit.

If we have to say something, here's my first shot, but I'm sure smarter and more mature BOD members may be more useful......

1) Nobody gets to alter any equipment on any route unless they've done a full days worth of work bolting/building trails on said cliff. Not any cliff, the cliff they believe needs repair.

2) Said janitor then has to get permission from the FA and general consensus from people in the know.

3) Making a statement by bashing in hangers is the stupidest fucking thing I've ever seen. If it's a verified good call (see #2 above) then yank the bolts. Making a petty little "statement" by leaving the eyesore is crassly insulting to the people that have been busting ass many of the days for many of the years to build the Gorge for you.

In short, try and show just a tad bit more class. This blatant disrespect for the Gorge and the people that build it is unnerving.

I'm Charlie. Anyone that wants to discuss should feel free to ask for me, more than a couple of people know who I am. I should be down sometime Friday and am flying out of Lex early Sun morning.

qwerty2 - You are a bigger tool than the hammer you wielded.

Since my name has come up, I will weigh in.
First, I have to disclose that I am 41 years old, so am much too mature in years for my opinion to matter with this. Also, as most know, while I have been trying to maintain fitness, I have been somewhat distracted away from climbing for several years (this will change) so I am a bit removed.
That said- I used to be young and dumb (as I can see several involved with this controversy are- takes one to know one... ) so I recognize the signs of self importance and self delusion when I see them.
Here is what I think- I think both sides of this original route/ new right variation debate have credence. Like I told Mike when he asked, if I had seen the line of least resistance over to the right, believe me, I would have shuffled the line over. I was swinging around on hooks in the middle of the winter with a heavy drill and kit and just didn't get over there to see those holds (although I have to say I took the many day over four weeks to drill that route.) So to that end, I would say I should probably go back and remove the original bolts (that is my purview). Look, sport climbing is artificial andd contrived to a large degree, and to that end routes should be consider fluid and evolving. I am not perfect. If I fucked it up the first time, I am honored that MD would find this route worthy of his attentions to make right.

To the opposition to the variation, Greg Kerhzner articulated his point well in the original thread back when MD first put the new bolts in. "The line was sent in a bold way using existing gear, and we should respect the ethos of the sport, blah, blah....."
Seriously, Greg is an articulate guy and he is right an extent. But let's remember where this ethos comes from- from a history of mountaineering and trad climbing where rap bolting and all the accoutre'ment of sport climbing were not a factor. But I think this argument falls apart when it comes to outdoor gyms. Don't get me wrong- the Red is one of the most special places on Earth. I mean, it gave a die hard atheist like Bill Ramsey pause to consider the evidence of the existence of a benevolent God solely because the sport climbing here was so perfect for the medium (see the intro to Ray's guide).
And with that thought, I would say finally, bringing this rant full circle back to you immature self absorbed narcissistic sport climbers involved in this drama (and I say these things not pejoratively, but clinically), what should help you in the future in your critical decision making when you have a hammer in your hand and are about to fuck up a route, ask yourself "Are my actions going to hurt the stone, or in any way affect access, and am I acting in self interest, or am I acting in a way that strengthens the community?" If you have to think too long, think "Wrong!".
The rock here is too precious and most of you are too transient, having invested little to nothing in this community for you to ever Deign to have the moral authority to do anything affecting the stone, the property, etc... unless it is helpful (help is always welcome- like taking it upon yourself to use a rest day to improve a trail or shore up an eroding base, etc..)

We, the RRGCC and all locals, will still be here after you punks have come and gone and we will clean up the mess (flattened bolts etc..) created after you have treated yourselves to your self -absorbed dramas.

Please time a moment to grow up a bit. It will happen eventually- believe me. Try not to grow into your golden years embarrassed by your actions as a post adolescent Peter Pan.

Hugh, I don't care what anybody says... you're a pretty smart guy.

Just read that the busted hangers have been replaced.

Chainsaw massacre is just too hard for me to climb, so i found a new resting jug half way up and two feet out right, it should totally be bolted so i can send it, YEA.

Brad didn't take the draws. Joe says he knows nothing about the draws.

So... who took the draws?

And I'm still confused... what was the statement being made?

I need to know for my song...

Yes thank you for clarifying that brad didn't take the draws, this was already established as misinformation and I believe if you scroll up you'll see an apology to brad. Joe said he had the draws, so he probably knows something about them. It is kind of strange though that draws would go missing on the two bolts of the left variation while none of the other draws were missing on a route that has had permanent draws for forever...

It all seems a little blown out of proportion. Right, chopping, hammering bolts, bad..got it, but only two bolts were messed with, the climb itself was not harmed in any way, and a FULL line of bolts is still there (I guess now it's back to the way it was though). Nothing was stopping anybody from doing the right variation and the left bolts are still safe and usable. Besides without the help of zoom camera lenses flat bolts and not flat bolts look the same from the ground so the climb was no more of an eye sore than before. Is this route even what people are really mad about or is it just the whole concept that some bolts in the gorge got messed with, it's not like someone is going around trad climbing sport climbs and then chopping bolts to restore the rock to it's original quality. There definately aren't any other routes in the red where going off route, or finding a different sequence is protected by different bolts, if a better sequence is found that doesn't follow the bolt line, you find a way to clip anyways using the bolts that are already there.

I know that it was said the right variation would have been bolted had it been noticed from the beginning, but whether he meant to or not, hugh did bolt a really good line, both lines are good, that's what the words variation and direct can add to a climb. They are useful for distinguising one route from another when there is a slight difference between them. It shouldn't have to be one route or the other. There is table of colors and table of colors direct, why can't you have 50 words and 50 words right variation, or just not have the other bolts at all and just have 50 words. Hugh might not have bolted the line he thought was right but it was definatley enjoyed by the few climbers strong enough to get on it and in a way they are preserving his vision, even if it was accidental.

I don't think this would have happened if the left draws had been there that day, i think the climb would have been climbed and that would have been it...I also think that it wouldn't have happened if qwerty2 had known how many people would get upset who never have and never will get on the route. It's not a "high traffic" route and there are really only a few people who it directly affects.

Does this really even threaten access like some people have been saying, aren't the access issues with the oil company. I really doubt that they care whether bolts are smashed, or if they're there or not...they just want thier oil. It's not like there are environmentalist threating access b/c they want to protect wolf spiders or whatever...

So really everyone is worked up about nothing...