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I love lurking and laughing at how ridiculous this whole thing has become. No wonder the rest of the climbing community is laughing about the whole situation!

fyj434 wrote: ( OH and work is not an excuse the meeting was announced several weeks before)

It is actually an excuse. Some people have shift jobs, where they have to be there at a certain time and leave at a certain time. I was on the schedule to work the day of the meeting long before the PD's even got stripped. I don't get off until 7:30 pm. Just in time for the meeting to be over. I do hope to attend the next one but I don't think that other obligations which prevented me from attending the meeting should also keep me from having an opinion.

Audrey and Hugh - I believe the work I do is very important and has the ability to affect many people, and our society, in a positive way. My job is not a shift job; I must work until the work is done and it has nothing to do with money. I don't expect you to understand and I'm okay with that and stand behind the decisions I make. That's why I just said "I have to work" without details because I can't easily describe the importance of my work and, if I do, it kind of sounds elitist and that my work is more important that someone else’s, which is not my intent or belief. But...the International "Vision Award" in my office that my work received this summer in DC is validation I'm making the right choices and setting the right priorities.

For what it's worth, I met with Shannon for almost two hours the week before during the only free moment I had. I also called her for an update on my way home from work that night (which was after 9pm). Despite your belief, I do care and have stayed involved to the best of my ability. Lucky for me I have my life back after successfully meeting my 4 month goal and deadline last Thursday.

Though I must say, I'm kind of on the fence now with attending the next meeting since your little group is coming across as just so mean and hateful. This reminds of the time back in 2006 when I worked around the clock to raise $26K in 3 months to secure purchase of the PMRP. Towards the end, a few locals spent so much of their energy hurting each other with personal attacks instead of celebrating a huge accomplishment that, once I finished my fundraising goal, I dropped out of the "community" and didn't even show up to Rocktoberfest to receive my "Volunteer of the Year Award". This kind of hurt makes me ask myself, "is it worth it?" and this time I'm just not sure it is...

krampus wrote:

fyj434 wrote:So must make this one statement about these meeting. Yes people are attending them. But some of the people on this forum have not attended. These people are to remain nameless, ( the last meeting was held 3 blocks from there house) but I want them to understand. They are blowing things way out of line on this forum and are not able to understand what has happened at the meeting, because they were not there for themselves. Before they go on here name calling and threatening people it might do them some good to attend on of the meeting held. I.E. the one in December they might come to an understanding that the removing of the draws were not a personal attack on them or on anyone for that matter, they might also be able to gain a little bit of knowledge and a better understanding of what the community wants. ( OH and work is not an excuse the meeting was announced several weeks before)

Oh please, I listened for as long as I could. Almost the entire meeting. Heard a bunch of whining about 5.10 climbers taking too long on 5.12's at the load that shouldn't be there in the first place and blahblahblah. The biggest problem with being backed into to having an opinion about something ridiculous is that you end up taking a side and forming points to back up that opinion. If your not careful, you wind up forgetting that you didn't care in the first place, and start making things personal. Hell, I lost a fiance because I couldn't figure that one out.

The reason the meeting is a waste of time is because most people don't care, they like it the way it is, or don't see PD's as the main cause in the larger safety/crowd control issue. Hence, the majority at the meeting didn't vote. So now some overly aggressive minority that does care is trying to 180 some long standing climbing ethic (that ultimately will not improve safety or remove crowd) for everyone else who just wants to climb. I don't want to spend another 2 hours of my life listening to people bitch about this shit, but decisions might be made so fuck if I don't have too go, and have a god damn opinion. Now I'm pissed

Krampus- Thanks for completely misrepresenting the meeting and the people who participated. I dont recall anyone dwelling on 5.10 climbers dogging up 5.12's at the undertow (maybe it was mentioned but it was not a topic of conversation). The meeting wasnt a waste of time and the people who came do care so please just speak for yourself. You are also incorrect about the vote that took place. A majority of people did vote and of the ones who abstained Dario and Paul did so because of legal/liability issues not because they didnt care. If the issue of PD's, in your mind, dosent directly correlate to safety/crowd control issues then what does? How are you under the impression that pd's are a long standing climbing ethic? The conversation about the merit of pd's is just now being discussed collectively via climbing/rock and ice magazines. I would be surprised if the climbers that dont care and "just want to climb" that you referred to in your post are taking any initiative to inspect, maintain/replace the fixed gear they're climbing on. So.....the discussion continues, there is no consensus and now you're pissed that you might have to attend a two hour meeting to represent a perspective that you apparently dont care about. Well....if like myself you're interested in this conversation coming to an end with an ethic/policy that the community can stand behind I'd suggest that you refrain from making posts that in no way bring us closer to that goal. You've misrepresented the content and participants of a community meeting, you've whined and had your online tantrum and you omitted any constructive or helpful dialogue in the process. So your for pd's....why? What are your ideas on the sustainability of fixed gear at the crag? How do you suggest the community come up with more funds to buy pd's and how do you think we can get more volunteer effort to maintain them? What are your ideas on pd's in regards to land owner liability? How does a fixed gear ethic and a leave no trace ethic co-exist at the same crag?

I'm a little confused, Cletus. You say one of the reasons for taking down draws is for safety due to sharp/manky gear? Then why didn't you remove the draws off of Paranoia?

allah wrote:I love lurking and laughing at how ridiculous this whole thing has become. No wonder the rest of the climbing community is laughing about the whole situation!

Thanks for all the help Kenny!

Tanya- I asked Dr. Bob if he would like me to remove them and he said he couldnt take a stance either way. He also seemed weary of any acton at all which could be construed as maintaining "fixed" gear. Because Torrent feels more like a private residence than a public crag I refrained. Do you want me to take them down because I will. I did remove the draws from BMT after Kobe's experience with the gear.

I just want you to do what you think is best, especially if that means keeping it safe for anyone else who chooses to climb that route in the future!!

cletuswilcox wrote:Krampus- Thanks for completely misrepresenting the meeting and the people who participated. I dont recall anyone dwelling on 5.10 climbers dogging up 5.12's at the undertow (maybe it was mentioned but it was not a topic of conversation). The meeting wasnt a waste of time and the people who came do care so please just speak for yourself. You are also incorrect about the vote that took place. A majority of people did vote and of the ones who abstained Dario and Paul did so because of legal/liability issues not because they didnt care. If the issue of PD's, in your mind, dosent directly correlate to safety/crowd control issues then what does? How are you under the impression that pd's are a long standing climbing ethic? The conversation about the merit of pd's is just now being discussed collectively via climbing/rock and ice magazines. I would be surprised if the climbers that dont care and "just want to climb" that you referred to in your post are taking any initiative to inspect, maintain/replace the fixed gear they're climbing on. So.....the discussion continues, there is no consensus and now you're pissed that you might have to attend a two hour meeting to represent a perspective that you apparently dont care about. Well....if like myself you're interested in this conversation coming to an end with an ethic/policy that the community can stand behind I'd suggest that you refrain from making posts that in no way bring us closer to that goal. You've misrepresented the content and participants of a community meeting, you've whined and had your online tantrum and you omitted any constructive or helpful dialogue in the process. So your for pd's....why? What are your ideas on the sustainability of fixed gear at the crag? How do you suggest the community come up with more funds to buy pd's and how do you think we can get more volunteer effort to maintain them? What are your ideas on pd's in regards to land owner liability? How does a fixed gear ethic and a leave no trace ethic co-exist at the same crag?

Cletus... many in the community are still bitter about your unilateral action that HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH SAFETY:

Sandman wrote:... and here is the main reasons. The red in general, some crags more in particular, have become whored out and have turned into everyone's outdoor climbing gym, with ZERO regard to crag and climbing etiquette as well as ethics in particular. This attitude of being able to access and abuse a crag and a route without the ability to even summit/make it to the anchors is totally unnecessary. The MASSES of people who come to lode and other crags with no respect and no knowledge has become simply too much. If you want to climb a route, take responsibility for yourself and realize any consequences. Basically saying... if you cant hang the draws and at least make it to the anchors... you shouldnt be on that route. The general mentality in the Red has evolved into "the worlds biggest climbing gym", where because you payed your $10 to the RRGCC.. you can act how wish, abuse what you want, park where you please, and climb any route because everything is fixed with gear. So why not perma-top ropes, or perma-auto belays, or tape the holds, god forbid you climb something in a good style that you can do in a reasonable amount of effort and time. My point is not coming from the stand point of an elitist asshole, well lets be honest, it is just a little bit. Nevertheless, the "stripping" and others actions that will be taken have the sole purpose of preserving the integrity and ethics of climbing in the Red River Gorge that have been rapidly disappearing. I won't lie, i enjoy perma-draws sometimes on certain routes, especially for training purposes. The thing is.. when it starts to DRASTICALLY effect the crag and access in a very negative way… im willing to make some sacrifices to better the area as a whole. ...

I happen to to agree that PD's are not necessary, are mis-used and abused, and need to be thoughtfully placed. However, your actions have served to polarize the community and had NOTHING TO DO WITH SAFETY. I agree that this needed to be addressed, but perhaps it could have been handled in a manner that would have brought the community together. Don't be surprised that people are resistant to anything you have to say... You lost respect in many peoples eyes by your actions. Well enough of the history lesson. We need to move forward.

Perhaps we could focus on REALISTIC solutions that address the growing trend toward fixed gear while at the same time recognizing the pitfalls of walls full of PD's.

While it is possible to hang and clean your own gear on ANY climb (as TOY pointed out was THE ETHIC of old), we are not climbing in the 1990s anymore. Why can't we just move towards PD's on the steep stuff (run > rise) , cleaning draws on the moderates, and fixed biners on the anchors?

Remind the community that the ethics for project draws are only left while actively projecting.

Begin an educational campaign for the masses about mank gear, and clean it up once or twice a year.

climb2core wrote:Perhaps we could focus on REALISTIC solutions that address the growing trend toward fixed gear while at the same time recognizing the pitfalls of walls full of PD's.

While it is possible to hang and clean your own gear on ANY climb (as TOY pointed out was THE ETHIC of old), we are not climbing in the 1990s anymore. Why can't we just move towards PD's on the steep stuff (run > rise) , cleaning draws on the moderates, and fixed biners on the anchors?

Remind the community that the ethics for project draws are only left while actively projecting.

Begin an educational campaign for the masses about mank gear, and clean it up once or twice a year.

These all seem like reasonable suggestions to me.


And I might add:

-Not every bolt on those certain climbs needs a fixed draw--maybe just 2 or 3, at the awkward spots. This has been suggested before.

-Project draws will continue to be left behind on popular climbs, and no "top-down" effort will change that. Just remove the dangerous stuff--this has always been the ethic, and will continue to be after this all dies down.