so if i were to rent a cabin, would I be allowed to use profanity, urinate and defecate all over the place, and run around naked?
also, i don't think the original post was clear, but trad climbing and the sport climbs on the left side are still open right?
Sport & Trad Closure at Torrent Falls
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Horatio Felacio
- Posts: 3338
- Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2002 7:26 pm
Maybe I should clarify my stance, just like everyone else I have my own opinion. As I stated before, I am thankful that we were able to climb at torrent for so long. I know that I loved going there in the summer to get in an evening session. At the same time I am not happy that it is closed, am I angry, only at the climbers that don't get it and can't follow the rules. I would hate to see this trend followed else where leading to closures of other private crags.JB wrote:well, my first response to chriss was anger and shock at the selfishness.
I used to eat at the BBQ occasionally, and say "hey this guy lets us climb on his property, I will support his business". Now I will take my small bit of money somewhere else. Of course this is my opinion, feel free to name call all you want.
Does this make me selfish? Maybe, but of course, how one spends their money is a selfish endeavor. I never bashed the guy for closing his back yard to climbing, (we all know that’s up to him and his family) but I do think it could have negative ramifications on his business.
Thanks Mark and Kathy for allowing us to be guests on your property for the past 8 years. I have many great memories of good friends, hard sends, hard training days, damp rainy days, memorial services, slide shows, etc on your property. Your cliff is one of the best crags at the Red and it's a shame you are forced to limit access to cabin and B&B guests only.
I think the greater climbing community as a whole(not just RRG community) is in a sad state and on a down hill slope. There are so many wonderful people out there but just not enough. I think it is going to take a lot more access restrictions and closures to change things for the better. I would hate to be in Rick Weber's shoes right now as he faces much of the same impact that Mark as had to deal with.
It's really unfortunate that Mark, Rick and the RRGCC can't charge fees for climbing on their property.
~Rob
I think the greater climbing community as a whole(not just RRG community) is in a sad state and on a down hill slope. There are so many wonderful people out there but just not enough. I think it is going to take a lot more access restrictions and closures to change things for the better. I would hate to be in Rick Weber's shoes right now as he faces much of the same impact that Mark as had to deal with.
It's really unfortunate that Mark, Rick and the RRGCC can't charge fees for climbing on their property.
~Rob
"Climbing is the spice, not the meal." ~ Lurkist
Just so you know, I will still be eating my fair share of philly steak and bbq sammiches. I will also still be hating on all the dumbasses that screw it up for the rest of us, including people that think they deserve a crag.
None of us deserve a crag, especially on private property. When you bitch because a closed crag, that was opened years ago because of great owners and the good nature of the community long before you got there, gets closed again because the overall population is bigger and stupider, then you can buy your own crag and set your own rules. Here's hoping people will follow them.
None of us deserve a crag, especially on private property. When you bitch because a closed crag, that was opened years ago because of great owners and the good nature of the community long before you got there, gets closed again because the overall population is bigger and stupider, then you can buy your own crag and set your own rules. Here's hoping people will follow them.
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absolutsugarsmurf
- Posts: 96
- Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 1:03 am
jr,
Your post is reactionary against climbers in the same way that some of the posts here are reactionary against Mark and his choice. Calling people fuk sticks isn't solving anything.
I wasn't condeming Mark at all for closing climbing. I never said anything of the sort. I actually agree with his actions. This is especially true after reading his post regarding specific examples. No one should be faced with such a situation. Although I agree with the other poster who expressed an opinion stating it's Mark's land and Mark's choice. As far as I'm concerned, he didn't need to provide a single reason for the closure. Rather, it's the timing of the actions and the wording of the policies that I disagree with. To host an access event and then a month later close a crag seems dishonest to me.
Additionally, I've not understood the liability concens. Everyone seems to have an understanding that Mark needed money from climbers, but couldn't require them to pay. I want to know why? I've payed to climb in the Gunks, I've payed to climb at Horse Pens 40, I've payed to climb in ABS comps, I've payed to climb in a gym, I've payed user fees in Yosemite, etc. etc. etc. What's the difference?
My other question/observation was that I've never seen behavior like Mark described. I climbed three days this weekend and heard a dog bark a couple of times (at Roadside). All told they were very pleasant days, climber company included. Is my perception of acceptable behavior skewed? I've always considered myself a low impact climber both environmentally and socially (pick up trash, waste, keep my gear in my pack, smile, chat, etc.). What is acceptable, and what isn't acceptable? This question, in regards to Torrent specifically though, is a moot point, as it is clear that much of the behavior there was obnoxious.
Though reading these posts has me asking another question: who the hell where these people pissing under rock shelters? I've never seen that before, and I know that the people I climb with would raise hell for behavior like that, and we're all from a gym background, so I don't know that the gyms can be blames for this type of behavior.
Your post is reactionary against climbers in the same way that some of the posts here are reactionary against Mark and his choice. Calling people fuk sticks isn't solving anything.
I wasn't condeming Mark at all for closing climbing. I never said anything of the sort. I actually agree with his actions. This is especially true after reading his post regarding specific examples. No one should be faced with such a situation. Although I agree with the other poster who expressed an opinion stating it's Mark's land and Mark's choice. As far as I'm concerned, he didn't need to provide a single reason for the closure. Rather, it's the timing of the actions and the wording of the policies that I disagree with. To host an access event and then a month later close a crag seems dishonest to me.
Additionally, I've not understood the liability concens. Everyone seems to have an understanding that Mark needed money from climbers, but couldn't require them to pay. I want to know why? I've payed to climb in the Gunks, I've payed to climb at Horse Pens 40, I've payed to climb in ABS comps, I've payed to climb in a gym, I've payed user fees in Yosemite, etc. etc. etc. What's the difference?
My other question/observation was that I've never seen behavior like Mark described. I climbed three days this weekend and heard a dog bark a couple of times (at Roadside). All told they were very pleasant days, climber company included. Is my perception of acceptable behavior skewed? I've always considered myself a low impact climber both environmentally and socially (pick up trash, waste, keep my gear in my pack, smile, chat, etc.). What is acceptable, and what isn't acceptable? This question, in regards to Torrent specifically though, is a moot point, as it is clear that much of the behavior there was obnoxious.
Though reading these posts has me asking another question: who the hell where these people pissing under rock shelters? I've never seen that before, and I know that the people I climb with would raise hell for behavior like that, and we're all from a gym background, so I don't know that the gyms can be blames for this type of behavior.
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anticlmber
- Posts: 3393
- Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2003 12:34 am
im not trying to solve problems. i am a problem. you may not have seen typical crag crowds. it is the off season right now. during spring, summer, and fall you know the crowds are bigger and there for crazier. i have seen some "great" examples of bad representation at the cliffs. most people piss and shit in the closest possible area. Fray21 same to you. the buisnesses that SUPPORT the RRGCC are those that give money. if money is still given for events then he is climber friendly. RRO and Miguel dont let us climb at there places. Like charlie said though. one less person in line.
holla
holla
Like me on facebook but hate me in real life
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Horatio Felacio
- Posts: 3338
- Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2002 7:26 pm