RRC Archives

How about "Please leave a donation or we'll have to close this area to climbing."

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The type of abuse that has caused Mark to take some action can be seen all over the area, public land and private crags. Its not a new problem, it appears greater due to the # of participants now. All that means is we, as a group needs to take action everyday at the cliff. Take a trash bag and pack some stuff out, leave the dog at home every once in awhile (especially if you know that your groups dogs will outnumber the people), bury your shit and follow leave no trace methods.

I think its funny and kind of sad that the "older" people are fussing about the "new generation". Isn’t it up to the "elders" to teach the young? Are you setting a good example every time you go to the cliff?

well said RRO... if the youngsters are to blame, we need to take the big brunt of it...they learn from us.

The RRGCC could certianly have done a better job of publicizing the trail day. I apologize and accept responsibility for that. Mark, however, is pissed regardless, I think that the low turnout at the trail day was just the last straw. He feels abused and underappreciated. He would like the community to know that he is inviting people into his home. This is the place he lives and runs his business. He is tired of people behaving as though they can do anything they want on his property. He is tired of defusing problems that occur when his paying guests (B&B folks) are offended by climbers. I think that it all boils down to respect, no matter where you are, treat the crag like it is the place you want to show off to your mother. Clean up. Don't shit in the living room and expect approval. Keep your dog on a leash. Park in the proper spots. Don't build fires. Stay on the trails. Keep the offensive language to a low roar. The rules are not all that arcane and generally are the rules that apply to most other things you do in life.

Number one. Be nice. It's not that hard and the 400 lb. person that's asking you questions may be the local owner of the nicest crag this side of the left coast, just because they are not a climber is no reason to dis them. Almost 50% of our climbing in the Red is on private land and if you piss someone off they may just ask you and the remainder of the climbing community to go elsewhere and stay the hell off their property. It has happened.

Number two. Share. We are all in this together. If you see someone doing something that would get everyone kicked off the crag let them know. You don't have to be offensive, just appraise them of the situation. We all come from different areas and backgrounds and some behaviors may be the norm where they are coming from. Most folks seem to be willing to comply with local standards we just have to tell them in a non offensive way.

Number three. Give back. Private property owners throughout the region have allowed us to recreate on their property without charge. We owe it to them to help out in any way we can. Pick up some trash and pack it out, cover up a turd, rehab a trail, just smile, wave and complement the area to anyone you see, stay on the trails, park in an approved area it's not that hard. The same applies to the Forest Service properties. Conscientious users are likely to get the benefit of the doubt prior to eviction.

Again respect. We are a "user" group and until you own the crag where you are climbing you cannot assure access and your behavior reflects upon the entire community.

Number four. Give your tithe. Whether you are a guru of the electronic box or are best at digging in the dirt, commit yourself to some activity which contributes to the community. Time spent improving the overall aspect of access whether it be trail day involvement, establishing new routes or keeping a web site up and functioning is time well spent. Fingers should never be pointed. We are all in this together and I feel that there are few if any individuals who would knowingly contribute toward the closure of a crag.

I would close by paraphrasing one of our founding fathers (of the country that is):
We must all hang together or surely we shall all hang one at a time.

Sorry about the length of the rant.

Bob

Thanks Bob.

Even better Alan. Could that be viewed as a fee though if failure of payment would mean one couldn't climb? Seems like the law makes it hard for any kind of forceful request. As for bad behavior, I agree with everyone else. People who behave are going to have to help monitor and educate those who don't care or are ignorant of proper behavior.

Could the trail day be rescheduled to another day due to low turnout?

I still think it is an education issue. I think the majority of weekend climbers do not know the difference between the variations of rules of torrent, shady grove, or left flank. they are just places to climb.

solving the education and communication issue is not an easy task. People who come down only a couple times a year or from far away do not have a sense of ownership or of community. And why should they? I truely believe most people are not assholes and if the local crag rules are clearly expressed they will follow them.

One of the costs of higher use is higher regulation and more developed infastructures. When I first came to the Gunks I could not believe the amount of rules, fees, and infastructure. it was not a wilderness experience. but when you are the local crag for a metro area of 18 million people those rules, fees, walkways, and fences make a lot of sense and keep the place nicer.

I think the red is going through some growing pains and luckily it has a bunch of concerned locals who sit around and BS about proactive ways to solve problems on the internet all day. So lets work with mark to improve signage, lets post some notices about the different types of land and rules at miguels and RRO. If a year from now those things have made no difference, lets get pessimistic about human nature and grumble that mark should shut down torrent.

Can we make up small cards to hand out to people with guidelines on one side and explaining who the RRGCC is on the other plus asking for membership and donations? I think all those concerned should be able to hand out something to everyone we meet at the crags since information distribution seems to be a problem. I know there are some people who we will never reach, but I believe there are several who would never help out, join the RRGCC, or donate unless approached personally. I'll volunteer to get them made and distributed to concerned people if it can be agreed upon what they should say.

First of all I am very saddened that Mark and Cathy have to even involve themselves with the crag at all. They shouldn't have to lift a finger for us. They work their asses off just to make a decent living from their business and from home schooling two beautiful young women. We climbers have no better friends in Gorge. None! Shame on us!
Merrick. Where does this "education" begin? I personally don't recall taking or being taught an outdoor ethic. I read the signs at trail heads, all trail heads. Call me a nerd. I just happen to think they are there for a reason. Kinda like a computer screen. As I look at this screen as I type away I don't see anything (words, numbers, or symbols), that is not relevant to this web site. I don't shit on the floor in my own house nor will I shit on yours. When and how did I learn this. God must have taught me because I don't ever recall having had my nosed rubbed in a big pile of my shit by my momma or learning it in school. If you want to be a good citizen you will. People simply do what they want to do. Right. I thought so.
Maybe it's just the way people are these days. I am in the Red more than most on here. Hell, it could all be my fault. I see a lot of shit in the Red . I don't have to smell it or taste it. I know it when I see it.
So Merrick, how are you going to educate this people? Put up a sign every ten feet. Won't work. I have had climbers tell me that they didn't think a certain sign applied to them. Do we do crag ethics clinics? Do we have "rangers on the carriage road" like at the Gunks?
I know what I do. The right thing. If I see others doing something that affects all of us, I look em in the eye and I speak up. Most people are very receptive to a little crag therapy.
In closing, WHAT bob SAID! Very well said sir. I am honored for you to call me your friend.

Terry Kindred