Climber suicides

Post by KD » Fri Apr 29, 2005 2:34 am

and, as stated before - i'll go counterpoint - that it is a person's death which is the most unique aspect of their life and they should be respected for facing it on ther own terms. the only thing that you will find common among all people is that they are all different sometimes.

Post by **Paul3eb** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:45 am

respect is earned for doing the right thing. when it's not the right thing, you deserve no respect. i pacify my fears by shooting up.. should i be respected for dealing with my problems on my own terms? people are all different sometimes. yeah.. so what? does that justify their actions? no. if i'm having a bad day and get pissed off, does that excuse me for yelling at my friends? no. i was raised in a racist home and was robbed and abused, lost my job to the other race.. does that excuse me from being a racist? no.

here's a thought: if you hate your life so much, instead of taking it, how about giving it to someone or something? give yourself absolutely and completely to feeding the poor, serving at a soup kitchen, delivering groceries.. it's a much less selfish route. if you want to lose yourself, get lost in something good.

and, by the way, how do you see a person's death as being the most unique aspect of their life? and why is unique always considered "cool" or "good" or "right on"?

Post by **Paul3eb** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:58 am

respect? bravery? honor? courage? there's a fifteen-year old girl who has all of that in the congo.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4608604

Post by KD » Fri Apr 29, 2005 1:22 pm

unique in that it is the one thing you truly own by yourself. the direction you truly head on your own course

Post by **Paul3eb** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 1:27 pm

KD wrote:unique in that it is the one thing you truly own by yourself. the direction you truly head on your own course

if you're dead, how do you own it? isn't that why we have wills, because you don't own anything anymore when you're dead? and what makes you believe you don't own anything when you're alive? and isn't everyone's life unique, with it's own story and plot and path? doesn't that make everyone's life "the direction you truly head on your own course"?

Post by KD » Fri Apr 29, 2005 1:40 pm

no paul - life is controlled by many factors, relationships, and situations. your coures in life is plotted by situation , circumstance, and education. the end is not based on these determinates if self-chosen.

Post by **Paul3eb** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 1:52 pm

if your life isn't "self-chosen", then how is your death? isn't that just another influenced decision based on your many factors? here, a bit of logic: if everything in your life is based on those determinates (ie: not "self-chosen" as you say), and since your choice to end your life takes place during your life, then your decision to end your life is influenced by those factors. how does that not makes sense? a great example would be japan: suicide rates are high there because suicide is thought an acceptable, respectable way to deal with failure (a bunch of crap). so is that those people's decision or just an influence of the culture? and if you have the ability to chose how you will end your life, how can you honestly believe you don't have the ability to chose how to live your life?

Post by **charlie** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 2:27 pm

I love how people diss on others who commit suicide. Unless you've been utterly plagued with illness that means you wake up with severe spititual / mental / physical pain every freaking day how can you even begin to understand?

You don't respect Hemingway, or Socrates, or the late great Dr. Thompson because of the way they lived (ended) their life?

Thinking that someone who is seriously considering suicide has anything to give anyone else in a soup kitchen is sort of naive. Sometimes the world is an incredibly heavy burden and I got out of the "passing judgement on others" business a long time ago, especially when it concerns their pain and the ways they choose to handle their personal burdens.

Post by **Paul3eb** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 2:57 pm

charlie wrote:Unless you've been utterly plagued with illness that means you wake up with severe spititual / mental / physical pain every freaking day how can you even begin to understand?

mental illness and physical pain are out of the realms of this conversation that i'm having mostly with kd (except for the fact that i think suicide is often caused by untreated mental illness and is, therefore, sort of in the realm.. but we've already talked about that earlier in the thread..).

You don't respect Hemingway, or Socrates, or the late great Dr. Thompson because of the way they lived (ended) their life?

i never said i don't respect the people: i don't respect their decision. hemingway was a cop out, couldn't live with the idea that he was getting old and that life would change. plus he had a drinking problem. he had an idea of what "being a man" was and was too stubborn to accept that maybe it was wrong. so when growing old showed him that being a man might be something different, he ran. socrates.. different story. he was found guilty and sentenced to death. the death sentence was drinking a cup of poisoned hemlock. dr. thompson.. i respect his life and writing. i still say his decision to commit suicide was wrong.

Thinking that someone who is seriously considering suicide has anything to give anyone else in a soup kitchen is sort of naive. Sometimes the world is an incredibly heavy burden and I got out of the "passing judgement on others" business a long time ago, especially when it concerns their pain and the ways they choose to handle their personal burdens.

why does a person committ suicide? one reason is a feeling of helplessness, a feeling that they're not doing anything good or anything at all. this reason echoes through kd's posts. my point is less to actually go serve soup and more that you're not a victim, that you have control, that you make the choices on what goes on in your life and you take those events, that you can create change, that it's your choice, that you're the exact opposite of the victim, that you're the one that, as satre said, is condemned to be free. now, that goes to the existential side of things and i don't want to because, while i believe existentialism has a ton of great points and great life lessons, i don't believe it applies to everything and everywhere.

why is the drunk who insecure about his masculinity and, because of that, beats his son considered an asshole who should be locked up and the quiet guy who's afraid of life and commits suicide respected for his decision? how are those two people different?

as for having to understand someone before i pass judgement: can anyone really ever understand anyone? realistically, probably not. can i understand the gestapo or the nazi's? no. do i know what they did was wrong? hell yes. that's a bit of an extreme example with it's flaws but it still makes the point.

Post by **charlie** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:28 pm

OK, I haven't really followed this thread, but I've seen / heard that "it is wrong, they were cowards" argument too often so it touches a nerve.

Paul3eb wrote:...mental illness and physical pain are out of the realms of this conversation that i'm having mostly with kd....

That kinda limits the discussion to a very small percentage of suicides then. How many people committ suicide when they are healthy?

paul wrote: i never said i don't respect the people: i don't respect their decision. hemingway was a cop out, couldn't live with the idea that he was getting old and that life would change. plus he had a drinking problem. he had an idea of what "being a man" was and was too stubborn to accept that maybe it was wrong. so when growing old showed him that being a man might be something different, he ran. socrates.. different story. he was found guilty and sentenced to death. the death sentence was drinking a cup of poisoned hemlock. dr. thompson.. i respect his life and writing. i still say his decision to commit suicide was wrong.

There's that "it is wrong, they were cowards" argument again. You were with these guys in their last days? You know something about them I don't that makes you comfortable saying what was right or wrong for THEIR place in time? Honestly, I have enough trouble deciding what 's "right / wrong" for me to do and I'm pretty conscious of what's going on in my head. Well probably 60% or 70% of the time I'm conscious.

Paul3eb wrote:why does a person committ suicide? one reason is a feeling of helplessness, a feeling that they're not doing anything good or anything at all.........

I can't speak to that, I can only know why "I" might committ suicide. I also can't apply the "you have the power to change" application to someone seriously considering suicide.

Paul3eb wrote:why is the drunk who insecure about his masculinity and, because of that, beats his son considered an asshole who should be locked up and the quiet guy who's afraid of life and commits suicide respected for his decision? how are those two people different?

Respected for their decision? Suicide as an action doesn't really help anyone earn my respect, but I similarly will not disrespect them for their decision. I honestly believe most people don't come to this action without a great deal of thought and who am I to question that decision?

Paul3eb wrote:...as for having to understand someone before i pass judgement: can anyone really ever understand anyone? realistically, probably not. can i understand the gestapo or the nazi's? no. do i know what they did was wrong? hell yes. that's a bit of an extreme example with it's flaws but it still makes the point.

Apples and oranges. Suicide is a very personal thing, those are not.
I'm not sure if maybe I missed the scope of this argument but from what I have seen suicides are more often than not a result of great pain. If this is not what we're talking about then I'm not sure I have much to add.