MiaRock wrote:i love how people think using an atc makes them a better belayer, it is like saying driving a stick makes you a better driver...no you just do more work.
Mia, I don't think anyone is saying that. What I'm saying is that using a Gri-Gri doesn't make bad belayers safer. Nor is a Gri-Gri entirely fail-safe, as so many people are fond of believing.
And it's only more work to use a tuber if you are accustomed to letting go of the break hand when you use a Gri-Gri. In fact, a tuber is much simpler for lowering (and rapelling) and therefore less work.
MiaRock wrote:i love how people think using an atc makes them a better belayer, it is like saying driving a stick makes you a better driver...no you just do more work.
how does one do more work with one device more than the other? the amt. of force and grip I use on my Metolius BRD is the same as I use on the g-g. both are minimal - any less and I'd be letting go with the brake hand.
feeding the rope feels like about the same amt. of work, just different techniques.
democracy is three wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for lunch
i don't let go with my brake hand when i use a gri gri, but when someone is hang dogging on a project then i can comfortably hold my brake hand and not have to continue to hold all their weight while they are resting like you do when you have an atc, therefore less work...
excellent point mia....you are correct. ~ Pigsteak
MiaRock wrote:i love how people think using an atc makes them a better belayer, it is like saying driving a stick makes you a better driver...no you just do more work.
Heh, I've long thought driving stick was less work - put me in an automatic and I spend way too much time moving my feet around looking for the freaking clutch.
MiaRock wrote:i love how people think using an atc makes them a better belayer, it is like saying driving a stick makes you a better driver...no you just do more work.
Good point Mia, using an ATC doesn't make one a better belayer but would you agree that every new belayer should learn to use an ATC first before using a grigri? Grigri's can develop bad habits in new belayer, I never let a first time belayer use them.
MiaRock wrote:i don't let go with my brake hand when i use a gri gri, but when someone is hang dogging on a project then i can comfortably hold my brake hand and not have to continue to hold all their weight while they are resting like you do when you have an atc, therefore less work...
I have a BRD, not an ATC. this could lead to another topic about if you're dogging on a projjy wojjy that makes Mia's/your belayers brake hand that tired, then you need to pick an easier projjy wojjy and come on down.
democracy is three wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for lunch
the term "ATC" is the "Kleenex" of tubers. I use a Jaws and exert the same pressure on my brake hand with it that I do on the Gri-Gri. The only time I really find a Gri-Gri anymore convenient to use is when belaying my daughter, since she weighs only 48 lbs and I often have to pull her up difficult sections of rock.
Whoever said "if you don't trust someone to belay you with an ATC you shouldn't trust them with a Gri-Gri" was right on. That's the bottom line really.
yawn....this is sooooooo old...so to continue rhunt, would you say no one should use an ATC until they have learned on the precursor to that device...say the sticht plate, or even the hip belay? where does it all end....
90% of those at the crag today are 100% sport climbers, and rarely, if ever use an ATC. so why learn...?
do all climbers need to learn the water knot, munter, and equalized anchors too???...you know I am yanking chains here. learning to use a piece of equipment you may never use seems silly...(I have never placed a bigbro, and I don't own hexes...gasp!)
sport climbers need different (fewer?) skills in the technical aspects of climbing. For example, I used my ATC one time last year in 120+ days of climbing...