Moderator: terrizzi
camhead wrote:
-start sandbagging route grades more
- Similarly, I guarantee that if Ray were to, say, downgrade Snooker to 12c/d, numbers of climbers on it would significantly go down, but those climbers would just go clog up Spank, or the Force.
Artsay wrote:It's 100% the problem. If Miguel's increased camping to $8/night, much of the problems we're seeing would go away.
Folks come here for weeks and even months at a time. They "live" at Miguel's instead of go on climbing trips.
Camping is $8/night in Maple Canyon (without water) and there are limited spots. If folks don't have camping figured out, they don't go.
Ever boulder at Hueco Tanks? It's such a hastle to plan and schedule within all the limitations that folks plan annual trips elsewhere.
Look at the cars at Miguel's and do the math.
If it wasn't $2/night, it wouldn't be as crowded (and IMO if the prices were increased, Miguel's would make more money and would see more paying customers instead of folks living in their cars eating their own food).
I'm afraid I don't agree with you on this one, Michelle. I mean do you ever camp at Miggies? (I ask because I don't know, but I'm assuming you don't) 90% of the time when I come to the Gorge, it is more convienent for me to camp than not. I think it's really easy to say this-or-that needs to change when it doesn't affect you in the slightest. Typically, the best course of action is what can I do better? Even for those of us who feel like they do a lot. I would almost guarantee that every single one of us could be better and give more. I think it is this kind of thinking we have to adopt as a community.Artsay wrote:$2/night camping is the problem. This is breeding the infestation of dirtbag climbers whom are the primary issue.
Saying that Miguel is a significant cause of crowding at the Red is like saying that one drop of water filled the bucket. It is just one factor of hundreds that could be mentioned...Artsay wrote:Just my opinion and you know what they say about assholes and opinions....we all have one!
When I was young *sigh*....
Some can't possibly believe this but the old crusties were all dirtbaggers at one time. Tis true...
And having been one I know exactly what it's like and why I climbed at certain places. Being a UGA college grad, the Red and the New were top pics because camping was easy and cheap. Other places like T-Wall, with limited sites and frequent break-ins, were always a pain and would get bumped down on the weekend warrior list as result. Same with Mt. Yonah, we used to be able to camp there so easilty but then it all changed and we didn't go there anymore. But of course, Mt. Yonah is no Red River Gorge...
But in general...yea, I think it does make a difference that camping is cheap and Miguel's is so awesome. We can't change Miguel's being so awesome and don't want to but I do think raising the price of camping will help make people think twice about going to the Red for every trip.
I thought I was answering Andrew's question on things we can change to manage the surge in visitors?Andrew wrote:The crowds are not going to go away, so what do we do as a community? I am not talking about just fixed draws, nor am I blaming any one person or group of people, but how do we as a climbing community safely manage the large amount of people. We have more parking, camping, and businesses catering to climbers than ever. How do we manage all of this?
