Guides at Military today

[Eric Cox]

Face it folks, this is the way of the future. More and more people are going to show up in groups like this .

Like it or not, he's right on this one. We can all get on here and complain but I have a feeling that isn't going to fix anything. These guys are staying with us at Land of the Arches Campgrounds in their two, not three, vans. Yesterday, they split up into at least two groups. Several gyms stay here through out the year, as do those that stay at Miguel's when they are here. I'm sure there a few at Linda's too. I can encourage those I am in contact with to have some crag manners, but isn't that about it? For me, the best thing to do is to go where the crowds are not, (which means climbing sometimes at out of the way places), or go out through the week. If the weekend is the only time you can get to the Red, then I can see your frustration. It's happened to me before and I didn't like either. So I have to ask, what is the solution? Is forcing guides to get a permit going to lessen the numbers at the crags? I don't think it will. There has to be a middle ground.
Thanks to John, Porter,Terry, Kipp, Matt, Karla, Jared, JJ, Blake, Rick, Jeff and everyone else that has ever put up a route in the Red. If blame is to placed for this maddness, it has to go there. If these people didn't do such quality work, the Red might suck and no one would come here!
Thanks Guys!

[dustonian]

Agreed Eric, but there are specific group size limitations in effect at Torrent, Roadside, and I believe Military/Left Flank (?), with good reason.

[Eric Cox]

Just had a talk with the coaches. I figured if they were getting bashed here, they should know. They are not guiding on this trip. No diffrent than me painting a logo on my van and taking some friends on a road trip. Being from out of state, they are not aware of which crags are hot and which are not. I coulnn't tell anyone the good climbs at the Gunks. They did say they would break up into smaller groups from now on. They also said that they offered anyone a chance to jump in front if anyone wanted to last Sunday. I agree with size caps, as do most, but how do we get the word out to people that large groups are not cool?

[rjackson]

So as suspected... it's Kipp's fault!

[stix]

guided trip or not, rollin up to the cliff with big intrusive groups is unacceptable, esp, when TR's are gonna be left on routes. we ran into a one vanload of the metrorock kids at the darkside yesterday, about 6-8 of them. after we showed up they finished up their burns they were on and pulled their ropes and left without speaking to anyone else at the cliff. kinda weird, but i think they just felt unwelcome.

I know i say this almost every year, but this spring has had a very different vibe at the main sport cliffs i frequent than ever before. it really feels like a critical mass is being approached. even the weekdays at some cliffs are crowded, this hasn't been the case during the spring before. usually the spring rush is full of newer more recreational climbers, and cliffs like the lode and darkside aren't crowded, not this season. many of the same faces i see in the fall are here this spring and staying till the fall.

in the last week or so i've seen a fist fight at the cliff, a huge group roll up to the lode and TR the intro to bohica and the first 6 bolts of beavis (the leader couldn't make it any higher), 24 cars at the solar/dside lot (we turned around and went somewhere else), the same dog bite the shit outta two people (both drew blood and one went to get sewed up i think), standing room only at the darkside on a monday, kids screaming all the time (it's starting to just blend in with the oil rigs these days) etc, etc. taken on their own a lot of this shit seems like standard BS if you're at the popular cliffs, but it's nonstop right now. i think we've passed the point of no return around here. we can do all the preaching and educating we want, and maybe it'll help take the edge off, but it's too late. it's everyman for himself at this point. we all the knew the red was badass and wanted the affirmation so bad that no one could keep their mouths shut and camera's pointed the other way. now we are getting the affirmation we all wanted

[KD]

guided trip or not, rollin up to the cliff with big intrusive groups is unacceptable, esp, when TR's are gonna be left on routes. we ran into a one vanload of the metrorock kids at the darkside yesterday, about 6-8 of them. after we showed up they finished up their burns they were on and pulled their ropes and left without speaking to anyone else at the cliff. kinda weird, but i think they just felt unwelcome.

I know i say this almost every year, but this spring has had a very different vibe at the main sport cliffs i frequent than ever before. it really feels like a critical mass is being approached. even the weekdays at some cliffs are crowded, this hasn't been the case during the spring before. usually the spring rush is full of newer more recreational climbers, and cliffs like the lode and darkside aren't crowded, not this season. many of the same faces i see in the fall are here this spring and staying till the fall.

in the last week or so i've seen a fist fight at the cliff, a huge group roll up to the lode and TR the intro to bohica and the first 6 bolts of beavis (the leader couldn't make it any higher), 24 cars at the solar/dside lot (we turned around and went somewhere else), the same dog bite the shit outta two people (both drew blood and one went to get sewed up i think), standing room only at the darkside on a monday, kids screaming all the time (it's starting to just blend in with the oil rigs these days) etc, etc. taken on their own a lot of this shit seems like standard BS if you're at the popular cliffs, but it's nonstop right now. i think we've passed the point of no return around here. we can do all the preaching and educating we want, and maybe it'll help take the edge off, but it's too late. it's everyman for himself at this point. we all the knew the red was badass and wanted the affirmation so bad that no one could keep their mouths shut and camera's pointed the other way. now we are getting the affirmation we all wanted

+1

[clif]

from a specific point about guide registration to the more general crowd control i'd like to highlight a silver lining.

guides, gyms, college outing/rec clubs, scouts or any other group are the best bottlenecks to influence and leverage public opinion.
if all these people were contributing to the rrgcc, or even just members, the patchwork of climber owned land could be significant.
esp. seeing how most of these people are in college or can afford gear and leisure activity.

i guess i think that instead of rousing the g-men maybe harnessing the power of the mob could be a better strategy.

[dustonian]

Right on, Clif... mewling about it is utterly pointless.

[Clevis Hitch]

LAC doesn't look at the size of the groups. It looks at the impact caused by numbers of people. I had a long conversation with Mr. Eling. He said that Military easily exceeds L.A.C. Whether or not there are five groups of four or one group of twenty the cumulative effect is the same. When you complain about the group, you are there to observe it so include yourself in the problem. As far as groups coming in out of state, there seems to have to be a way to notify them of the particular problems of the areas. Whether its someone sticking fliers on windshields in parking lots Or someone as an official of the CC going around to the problem crags and speaking with the leaders of the groups.

I personally think that if you arrive at Military parking and see three vans from out of state and you continue on to the crag. You are more of the problem than the out of state group. You know better. To continue on and cause more impact is being genuinely arrogant. Think about it.

[cliftongifford]

Just had a talk with the coaches. I figured if they were getting bashed here, they should know. They are not guiding on this trip. No diffrent than me painting a logo on my van and taking some friends on a road trip...

If you're getting paid to take a group of people climbing, you're commercially guiding. Big difference.