Who does it belong to?

[ted]

toad and dustonian- looks like i may had crossed the boundary's with my "lack of words" but let me defend myself. There's Roadside, The Lode, Muir and Torrent that come to mind when discussing climber access on private property. The guidebook states that private purchases is the future for climbing access.( I think) And i agree that is an awesome Idea. As far as i can tell, roadside and the Lode is upholding the best example. But the Weber's are absolutely blowing everyone out of the water with there selfless service. (theres no way i would put up with the shit that they put up with) last year Rick went on his rant talking about funding. I pitched in. later on I decided not to climb in Muir. Not for being pissed off, but rather that was the best way that i could contribute, by not going at all. I look around at Muir Valley and see perfectly groomed trails, mowed valleys, and a dam walkie talkie at every cliff. Thats cool, i know emergency rosponse is important to rick, its there's. But once we choose to engage in the selfless act to purchase climbing property to save access, then you must realize whats going to follow. Whats even more surprising is that even though they say they cant maintain the property, there still developing! I cant even think of the two dudes that own roadside. now thats truly selfless service to the climbing community, it seems to be doing just fine. Now, Torrent. Its bobs land. Period. He's obviously done great things for the community, but he also know's that he holds a diamond in the ruff. Close it or open it, I really dont care, im not entitled to it, its his land. You already know what i would do if it was mine! But dont try to play the heroic "im saving Access" card, then make threats to shut it down just because its not going his way. Ive cringed at most post by climb2core, but im with him on this. Ask the folks that he lets climb there to police the area. If he wants to open torrent to full public access, then ill be the first in line on trail day.

[dustonian]

Uhh... Torrent is (was?) open to the public... first-come, first-serve, Thurs-Sat. Are you just too lazy to wake up and register or what?

[RRO]

ted, just to touch on what you are talking about and make sure everyone involved knows the difference in the lands we are talking about and to maybe move this into a discussion that could do good.

in my opinion the ONLY land thats in the region that truly is " if we own it , they cant close it" or "private purchase to save climbing" is the PMRP and it even has its bumps in the road.(but lord, please dont let this turn into an rrgcc thread, well and now allah, please dont let this turn into a why did you ask jesus thread)......

Anyways, Muir, Roadside, Torrent, Mother Load and other "privately" owned crags are just that. Private owned crags.

No matter what any of the owners of that crag currently says, what they ask for, what they get, what they promise, what we do to them, what they do to us, what joe says, what i say or what your mother says, they can close them and it has happened in the past and has been threatened on all but 1 of those crags and even that 1 has had its problems. Its plain as that. If a lawsuit does come up and the KY recreational law does not hold up, they close them. If Muir does not get financial help from the people using it or maybe the webers just get tired of it, they close it. If John wanted to just take guided groups from his shop in morehead or grant wanted to chill on his ledge out to roadside, they close it. If Bob wants to run around in his boxers alone at Torrent, he closes it. I own a crag and aint but about 8 people allowed up there. There are more private crags that select people have access to than I can count on my 19 fingers and toes. Anyways, you get the point.

I am truly grateful and everyone should be that those areas are open. As a business I respect what they are doing for the local economy. I support them or have supported them when allowed to the best of my ability. I believe that they are providing a much needed thing for the region as a whole. But the entire time I was aware of the fact that any of those areas could throw all that to the side and close.

Again, I love all the private areas and will help in anyway possible to keep them open and growing. But do that at my own risk.

What I want to make sure everyone understands that what the guidebook says about private owned areas being the future is that they ARE the future of climbing but that there are two types of "private" that seem to be being interchanged. One is owned by climbers as a group and the other is owned by an individual/limited partner base. Which do you think actually offers the most protection against closure ?

Fight for all of the "private" areas to stay open. Ninja people that need ninja-ed. Speak up when needed. Pick up everytime you go out. Buy the owners a beer and say thanks. But realize which private you are talking about and how that private works....

[Clevis Hitch]

lllll

[RRO]

well hell, now you made me blush joe......i think i would have rather been cussed...

if you want to talk man, talk. all im asking is that instead of being a blatant dick about it and name calling someone that in my very strong opinion deserves the utmost of respect and that i take very personal when attacked, that if ya got beefs be man about it. you give respect you earn respect has been my experience in life.

now, i need a beer.

[ted]

I think the PMRP is one of the best examples in the nation and is the tip of the spear for saving access in OUR beloved RED. If Torrent is getting out of hand and to much for Dr. Bob to handle (or any landowner of climbing property) between him and those who climb there, then he should sell it to the the rrgcc if he is truly concerned for "climbing access". I didnt mention PMRP in my last post, because i do know the difference between the PMRP vs private personal property. I know im not ENTITLED to climb in these public areas and ive only climbed at torrent once, but what im not about to do is suck somebody's ass and beg on an online forum just so i can climb there. But if he needs physical labor or any other help, than i would be more than happy to help in return for some climbing( its raining tomorrow, and i aint got shit to do, pm me). For the climbing community as a whole, the future of climbing is in organizations such as the cc and also working together as a community on the LAC in the DBNF. Not begging on a forum.

[krampus]

I have to disagree with you Piggie... already stated my parking lot analogy. Can you find fault with that analogy... I would like to hear? This is not the place or the way for Dr. Bob to go about asking for help policing, just as taking out a billboard announcing "Make sure people don't park in my lot" is not a reasonable solution either.

First off, Dr. Bob does not make money from the people he lets climb on his land. If I let you park in my lot for free, I would most certainly have the right, scratch that, the justification to ask you to keep people without permission from parking in my lot. In fact it makes sence to let a few people in to watch over the place. But all that is asside from the fact that he doesn't need a right or justification, its his place, period. No I do not have a pass to get in, but I have no problems letting someone manage their land how they want too.

Krampus, you need to re-read my original argument... you missed the point buddy. I DO expect him to go to ask the people that climb for free on his land to help out... but that was NOT what he did. He should manage as he sees fit. Again, go re-read my original argument, maybe two or three times. Your argument with me will seem nonsensical if you get my argument.

I'm pretty sure I wrote a clever response to this twice last night, the first time my battery died on my laptop and the second time....well I am not even sure what happened but I don't see it on here. Now I just feel like its too late after all these long ass soliloquies on respect, and disrespect.

[toad857]

I think the PMRP is one of the best examples in the nation and is the tip of the spear for saving access in OUR beloved RED. If Torrent is getting out of hand and to much for Dr. Bob to handle (or any landowner of climbing property) between him and those who climb there, then he should sell it to the the rrgcc if he is truly concerned for "climbing access". I didnt mention PMRP in my last post, because i do know the difference between the PMRP vs private personal property. I know im not ENTITLED to climb in these public areas and ive only climbed at torrent once, but what im not about to do is suck somebody's ass and beg on an online forum just so i can climb there. But if he needs physical labor or any other help, than i would be more than happy to help in return for some climbing( its raining tomorrow, and i aint got shit to do, pm me). For the climbing community as a whole, the future of climbing is in organizations such as the cc and also working together as a community on the LAC in the DBNF. Not begging on a forum.

I think I see what you're getting at... but it's more than just "access" that people are shooting for. If "access" was the only priority, then the land would be denuded, trodden, and saturated to such a foul point that we may as well let the 4-wheelers have it. These crags are not static--they are literally living things that can only hand so much.

I think we at the Red have an opportunity to show the climbing world how it should be done (Torrent, Muir, PMRP, everywhere). And I don't want to think about the alternative.

Last fall we were hanging out at Purgatory (it was a crowded day... everyone was waiting for anything) when a group of 15 (yes, fifteen) Spaniards descended on the crag and took up base at paradise lost......... the crowd didn't bug me, we're all used to that at this point... but what was sad is to think that these 15 Spaniards had no idea that only 2 years before, this kind of crowd was unheard of. They think it's the norm. They think that this is how it's always been. They're wrong.

[RRO]

I think the PMRP is one of the best examples in the nation and is the tip of the spear for saving access in OUR beloved RED. then he should sell it to the the rrgcc if he is truly concerned for "climbing access". im not about to do is suck somebody's ass and beg on an online forum just so i can climb there. But if he needs physical labor or any other help, than i would be more than happy to help in return for some climbing. For the climbing community as a whole, the future of climbing is in organizations such as the cc and also working together as a community on the LAC in the DBNF. Not begging on a forum.

if this is who i think it is i know for a fact that you dont think you are entitled and that you are an amazing dude. hope i get to see you while your in. if its not who i think, im sure your an ok fella. unfortunately as most issues that are batted back and forth on here, we are preaching to the choir and folks on here usually are not the biggest issue.

i agree 100%, PMRP is one of the best if not the best example of not only climbing land but any recreation tract or group in the US. Im glad the last post was able to clear you up as far as how "private" works. but the other lands are very important and deserve everyones involvement if they use the areas.

i dont understand how people can still be confusing what bob owns and is responsible for doing for the community. torrent is his private HOME, a small side business(cabins) and some kick ass cliff. he tried to open the place back up and let the world in his back yard. it may not be 100% open but neither is little rock city, gunks or anyone heard of hueco ? deal with it. its a fine fine balance between loving and rebuilding the land and having it a recreation area. were you there before bob(well before it was CLOSED to climbing) and have you been there after ? it went from looking dead and beaten like a 2nd street hooker to actually having vegetation and such again. user trails have been blocked, lights put in and so on and so on.

why does what he does with his private land have to affect what he does for "climbing access" . i can just about guarantee that no one in this world has given more money, time, ideas and leadership to the pmrp/rrgcc than bob has. even though he does not hold a position i know for a fact behind the scenes he is still helping those that do. but if he wanted to walk away today, holding his nuts in hand, flipping all of you off with his Terry was pushed shirt on. he would still have done more than you , me and anyone else. his morals, his actions and his goals in my opinion are beyond this. HE has tried, WE have failed. i do not and cannot allow folks to question him in that way, its like smacking my mother and is so beyond any hint of truth if you actually look at the facts.

bob by far is not asking anyone to kiss his ass. call him a dick, cuss him to his face or flip him the bird. hes a big boy, he can handle it. but what hes asking is that people stop poaching the place, hes asking that he has to stop cleaning shit off his trails everyday, hes asking that you dont bring your dogs and let them run wild, he asking that you pick up after yourself and the other dumb ass bi-peds, he asking that people stop whining and complaining cause he only opens his house up to the world 4 days a week(for free), hes asking that people stop taking his personal fire wood and build fires at the cliff, hes asking for a little help with trails and so on and so on. this has been asked by at least three owners at torrent and guess what, people did not change and the area was shut down. so call the above issues kissing ass, call them rubbing nuts, call them just the tip....i dont care but they are common courtesies that should be applied where ever we recreate. cause once the FS or other land owners get tired of it they WILL do the same thing, and in all reality once it gets to that point all you can do is fuss about it on the internet. at least he is giving another chance for a group that has proven over and over that they cant handle the responsibility.

im done with this topic, my hillbilly ass only knows so many words and im tired of getting upset. if anyone cares about my thoughts anymore or would like to talk about it more. bring a beer and we can sit down and enjoy one. i may even have some here, but not on sundays......

the lesson is simple here folks.... respect, common courtesy and do not ever take things for granted, they can be gone tomorrow.... also, if we own they cant close it is worth saying again imo.

[climb2core]

It seems the overwhelming majority of people on this board DO respect Dr. Bob's land and right to manage as he see fit. The thread has basically digressed into saying what a great guy he is and opinions on how he should manage it... which everyone agrees is his call. Noticeably absent is any feedback from Dr. Bob himself... which might help to further clarify his concerns and what he was hoping to achieve by his post. I think that it might be time for Dr. Bob to lend some clarity and direction to this thread that he started, in order to focus the problem and allow for a productive solution. Until then, it is really just a bunch of school girls gossiping...