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dustonian wrote:sure it's lame. But as a side note & to play devil's advocate here, do you guys really care that much about who ends up rap-bolting another sport route here? I mean, ego aside, in a way he just saved somebody $100 and a half day of tedious manual labor, no? There's enough rock here not to get too bent outta shape and slander a guy over one selfish blunder.

this coming from the guy who slanders clevis at every turn? mmmm, ok.

lol....it didn't happen to me, so I have nothing invested. but my understanding of it was that Jason had spotted what he thought was a freakin' cool line and was stoked on putting in the work..so yeah, I guess it does matter. The static line was hung vuirtually right on top of the line to be bolted, and then mr. mike jugs up, and rap bolts on someone elses rope? I am finidn it hard to fluff off, if only because our community should be better than that. now that mike knows from whom he snaked the line, wouldn't the decent thing be to call the dude and just talk it out man to man? and then jason and mike could come on here and tell us it is all cool and for us to butt out....

i agree it was a very odd choice to jug someone else's line. but the personal slander on here is a bit much... I dig that the Red has a very generous and friendly community and that "racing" to bolt a line isn't kool. But it isn't like that everywhere--in Austin/Pecos/northern Mex for instance, you pretty much get a try or two to send a line after bolting it before the vultures start moving in. I tend to give folks the benefit of the doubt and chalk this one up as a cultural difference. Mike is a good guy from my experiences with him and he has done some rad shit in other places (notably trad mind you) where the local ethics and "rules of engagement" are much different. Here in Kentucky, by contrast, people are almost too nice, and there's enough good rock there's no need to poach someone else's line, especially on their fixed rope... but hey, it's all just rock climbing anyway. The route is still there and will continue to be climbable for everyone until the landowner decides to kick us all out for good. I'm sure Mike did a good job bolting and the end result is more or less the same. I would hazard a guess he wouldn't even care if Jason got the "FA" (for what that's worth) or whatever.

And with that, I will butt out for good... sorry for the lengthy diatribe. If anything it will make an amusing guidebook anecdote in 15 years...

pigsteak wrote: if only because our community should be better than that....

Exactly. Snaking someones line, on their rope, is like robbing someone while pissing in their face. If that's acceptable in "our community", then our community is pretty lame.

I didn't say I think it's "acceptable," just that there's bigger crimes in the world to get pissed off about. For instance, did you know more than 2.5 million people have been killed in the genocide in southern Sudan?... Rock climbing is supposed to be for fun. If it really bums Jason out that much then chop the route, fill in the holes, drill new ones, and make Mike a pretty necklace out of the rejected hangers.

lol..now there's a downer for you...

not sure what it has to do with bolting routes, but sure, throw it in there.

and to mike directly, since we do not know each other, I do not mean my attacks personally. but the route developing community around here is very close knit, and your answer would shed some light. you clearly are reading this, and are we to assume your silence as an indictment or indifference?

and dustonian, here is another reason I get bent out of shape. as you know, so few do the work for so many. I think of the few who run rocktoberfest, how the Webers have to ask for donations even though there is a box staring at climbers everyday, how Funk Rock rebolt has essentially become a one man show after tons of "yeah I'll help", how Team Suck literally saves lives every year doing the dirty work, how Torrent still has issues with the stricter rules, etc..this "me first" attitude didn't start here.

I hear ya Kipp. And yeah the Sudan thing is a red herring... sorry. Just watched a documentary called "The New Sudan"... super sobering and interesting.

dustonian wrote:I mean, ego aside, in a way he just saved somebody $100 and a half day of tedious manual labor, no?

Another way to look at it is he saved himself days worth of trail building and bushwhacking. The day or two spent bolting the actual route isn't the crux of the job.

Of course, this is coming from a guy that has yet to establish any new cliffs on his own, with trails, etc... So really I'm just guessing at how much work it is.

Well, just to clear things up guys, Mike did send me a message trying to resolve this issue. He kindly offered to make it up to me if only I could explain what he had done wrong. I didn't spell it out for him, knowing I could count on you all to explain the local ethics. Thanks!

As far as whether or not this whole ordeal is worth 4 pages of back and forth, I don't know. But I think you can't really have a stance on it unless you were out in July and August doing the leg work. Fighting ticks, heat, humidity, thorns, rhodo, mosquitos, and everything else the Ky summer throws at you. Skipping weekends of climbing to make trails, cut bases at the cliff, and rig up lines for some jackass to swoop in and enjoy your nicely anchored static line to bolt off of. And I'm sure the freshly trimmed and chopped tree behind him was a nice bonus as to not have to fight the branches while bolting. I know Kipp, Jeff, and others have put in these hours on walls for others to enjoy, but if you haven't then you really don't have a dog in the fight, so for you to say it's not a big deal doesn't hold a lot of weight.

But it's whatever, the routes are up and they look cool and I never even thought about stripping them...thats way too much work. I am curious about the grades though. Mike?

And, if we weren't on this board wasting our time, I don't think any of us would be doing Humanitarian work in Sudan.

The obvious resolution to this whole scenario is to steal his FA as soon as its done being bolted. Making up with words is for losers. Or you guys could fight, that would be cool too.